WRC out, R5 in

[AdvEvo]

You can also see in hairpins the R5 has not the power of an WRC car. It can not power slide over 4 wheels like a WRC does on dry. It runs bit short on power then.

[Jack4688`]

A 33mm restrictor and the shorter gear ratios of a 6 speed box would help with that

[sollitt]

If the R5 becomes new WRC formula the cost would grow up not vice versa.

There is no reason at all why this is necessarily true ... which is probably why you've not provided one.
The key is making the base car affordable and robust regulation around development.
Factories, and well funded privateers, will always test and develop and push boundaries however that's not to say that these developments will always find their way onto the stages.
With both Grp4 and GrpA we had a situation where talented privateers could take the game to the manufacturers on an 'almost' level playing field and, on occasion, actually led the way in development.
If we want a true world championship, rather than a competition for sons of rich daddies, they need to be looking at this direction.
If we stay with what we have now, we'll continue to have the situation we've all bemoaned for so long.

[Rallyper]

What´s the difference between R5 and RRC cars? Are there same components on R5 and WRC such as brakes, suspension, gearboxes etz?

[tommeke_B]

If the R5 becomes new WRC formula the cost would grow up not vice versa.

There is no reason at all why this is necessarily true ... which is probably why you've not provided one.
The key is making the base car affordable and robust regulation around development.
Factories, and well funded privateers, will always test and develop and push boundaries however that's not to say that these developments will always find their way onto the stages.
With both Grp4 and GrpA we had a situation where talented privateers could take the game to the manufacturers on an 'almost' level playing field and, on occasion, actually led the way in development.
If we want a true world championship, rather than a competition for sons of rich daddies, they need to be looking at this direction.
If we stay with what we have now, we'll continue to have the situation we've all bemoaned for so long.

Actually there is a reason. The price is always decided by who invests most. The rules of WRC cars have been simplified many times over the years, but still the price went up and up and... Many people here know it better than me, but things like water injection (in the cylinder), electronic diffs, use of some materials etc have been banned over the years, in order to make the WRC cars cheaper. Also the 1.6T WRC cars were meant to be cheaper than 2L WRC cars, but it turns out they are more expensive (especially regarding the running cost). Also S2000-cars got much more expensive since Skoda entered the race for having the best car. When I compare the price for S2000 cars I heard in 2007 - 2008 to 2011 - 2012, the price has almost doubled (1,5x to 2x as expensive), while the rules have not changed.

[tommeke_B]

What´s the difference between R5 and RRC cars? Are there same components on R5 and WRC such as brakes, suspension, gearboxes etz?

There is no relationship between R5 and RRC cars. RRC is basically a WRC with a smaller restrictor, other flywheel and more basic aerodynamics (read: not a 15 000 euros rear wing), maybe there are more things I'm not aware of, but I don't think so. R5 is a car that should be more "basic", it has a bigger restrictor than RRC, but the choice in engine isn't as free, they have a 5-speed gearbox and many parts must come from standard cars (not neccesarily the same manufacturer as the rallycar, for example Ford Fiesta R5 has some Porsche parts inside).

[Mirek]

There is no reason at all why this is necessarily true ... which is probably why you've not provided one.
The key is making the base car affordable and robust regulation around development.
Factories, and well funded privateers, will always test and develop and push boundaries however that's not to say that these developments will always find their way onto the stages.
With both Grp4 and GrpA we had a situation where talented privateers could take the game to the manufacturers on an 'almost' level playing field and, on occasion, actually led the way in development.
If we want a true world championship, rather than a competition for sons of rich daddies, they need to be looking at this direction.
If we stay with what we have now, we'll continue to have the situation we've all bemoaned for so long.

Get use to that gr.A times are long time over and will never return. Never. To base any estimation for close future on a situation from 20 years a go is pointless. Everything is different now. As Tommeke said the cost is driven by the player who can afford to spend most. VW and Hyundai have endless pockets. They don't care about others or privateers. They don't even need sponsors. They have the only target to win - for any cost (same applied for Citroën until recently). You can not keep cost down on the top level.

It's neither necessary nor wise to repeat the same mistakes again and again. In 2010 FIA decided to take affordable S2000 regulation and create new WRC on them. So they changed engine and aero and created a new "cheap" WRC which can be easily turned into RRC (competitor for S2000). After three years the result is that RRC running cost is 3x higher than S2000 and despite new S2000 homologations are banned for three years almost nobody except sheikhs uses RRC cars in regional championships. Those are still full of "outdated" S2000 cars.

[sollitt]

You miss the point and make a number of speculative assertions in your comments.
Nobody is suggesting a return to GrpA … or Grp4 for that matter, (although many would certainly enjoy the latter) however the lessons of 20, 30 or 40 years ago are as valid today as they were then.
In both of those era privateers were able to build a compliant and competitive car in their home garages and use it to good effect against the factory teams, even winning events on occasion.
I’m not saying it was inexpensive at all but, because the cars were also the formula used in domestic championships and the regulations remained relatively static, the development of privateers machinery pretty much kept pace with that of the factory teams.
Until we get back to that kind of situation the WRC will remain the farce that it is today in which the main game, as AdvEvo put it, is finding the money to buy the tag “WRC Driver”.
Perhaps R5, with constraint and robust enforcement, could be that formula.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Perhaps R5, with constraint and robust enforcement, could be that formula.

That seems to be the plan, but the challenge is in how those regulations could be enforced. I think the FIA has a vision where manufacturers build the cars for customer teams, where the cars cheap enough to attract as many customers as possible, allowing the manufacturers to recuperate the costs. Kind of like the way M-Sport build and run all of the Fiestas. It's a model that could work, especially if all teams can score points for a manufacturer.

[AdvEvo]

We need to go back to the basics. Everybody is complaining there is not much new talent. Some people overhere even talked about Duval loix and even panizzi to go back in. LOL

Toyota is with a GT86 rally on a good path. Lets just hope the car doesn t cost you a fortune so new talents/priveteers can get relatively cheap into rallying compared to R4/R5 and WRC.

The only thing we need is a cheaper 4x4 class. R4 are done and new group N cars will be also not there in the future. Look at the new WRX bigger and longer that s the wrong way around and Evo s go electric

Next year we get Audi A1 S1 quattro for the street. That would be a nice car to step up from FWD/RWD to 4x4. But they need to build it simple and low maintenance. Easy and cheap to run to get more privateers to the sport and find more new talents for the WRC.

Also BMW is building a cheaper race car for more privateers to get into racing with a factory car. 59.500 euro you get an M235i Racing. I think it s a good concept factory teams bring such cars. If you wanna buy a BMW Z4 GT3 Racecar you talk about 400.000 euro. Outside factory teams that s almost a no go area for privateers to come into the sport.

The steps in rally are now financially to big. If i drive ford fiesta FWD and if i want 4x4 i need an R5 then. The budget for that are mega steps. And with the financial crisis were in, you won t find the money at sponsors.