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Thread: Non champions

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
    In answer to the first question - Yes
    As for the opinions of Derek Warwick, maybe he never had that good a handle on what makes a winning Grand Prix driver? Maybe I'm being unnecessarily provocative. Maybe
    GV had psychological weaknesses but to quote Marx he wasn't a 'ferret-faced chiseller' (Groucho)
    Maybe you are correct about Warwick. I don't recall him being as fast as Villenueve. Nor do I recall him doing anything as reckless. I know that, for some, Zandvoort 1979 was fantastic. Personally, I thought it was idiotic.

    It was his never-give-up approach, of course. But a Grand Prix champion has to look at the bigger picture. A fantastic racer, no doubt. But well short of having a Champions focus.

    I also never bought into the Pironi-as-a-pantomime-villain myth, as pedalled by Nigel Roebuck. In deed, I always suspected that the likes of Roebuck had already found Pironi guilty of being French long before the Imola incident and was more than happy to crucify him on a one-sided, uncorroborated, statement from Villenueve.

    There was no Divine actions on the Saturday at Hockenheim in 1982. Just a man in agonising pain. Sadly.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parabolica
    Maybe you are correct about Warwick. I don't recall him being as fast as Villenueve. Nor do I recall him doing anything as reckless. I know that, for some, Zandvoort 1979 was fantastic. Personally, I thought it was idiotic.

    It was his never-give-up approach, of course. But a Grand Prix champion has to look at the bigger picture. A fantastic racer, no doubt. But well short of having a Champions focus.
    John Watson, someone for whom I have much respect, has said Villeneuve on occasion drove 'like a hyperactive child'. His view of the man is much like Derek Warwick's, and Watson, without doubt, was a man who knew how to race and win Grands Prix.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo
    I don't think by a longshot that Eddie Irvine was one of the greatest drivers never to win the World Championship but I do think that he was deliberately robbed of one.

    In the 1999 Japanese GP, Coulthard played an excellent job of holding up Irvine and so Irvine finished well behind Hakkinen and Schumacher. Schumacher though, put his Ferrari on pole and had the fastest laps of the race and then for almost no observable reason, got to sight distance of Hakkinen and pushed no harder.

    I think that Schumacher knew that had he won the GP, he would have stolen the points which Hakkinen would accrue. Irvine would have been the first World Champion for Ferrari in twenty years and not Schumacher, and he resented that deeply.
    I suspect that Schumacher proved that the car was easily capable of winning the race but that he threw it for the reason above.
    Rollo, I absolutely believe this. Also, Schumacher looked very guilty when reporters pushed him on this in questioning, diverting attention to Coulthard. The 2000 race just confirmed it even more for me. The difference between how hard he was trying compared to the 1999 race was stark.
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  4. #14
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    One that is remembered with affection is Wolfgang Von Trips.

    I was starkly touched by the words of Phil Hill many years later, who said that winning a World Championship was supposed to be the greatest moment in a drivers life, yet events meant that he felt sorrow and numbness.

    Another I have heard about, but was too young to witness, was Francois Cevert. Of course, the 1974 Tyrrell was maybe not a Championship car in comparison to the 003 model, but he was strongly tipped to be a big contender when he passed away.

    I am sorry if I have taken this thread in a morbid direction.

    I can make funny balloons, if it is a compensation.
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  5. #15
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    I was fortunate to see Wolfgang Von Trips at the British Grand Prix,the very last time he did it in maybe 1961 ish .He died very shortly after that ,in maybe the next race he did.

  6. #16
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    The German GP came between the British and Italian GPs in 1961.

    He finished a posthumous 2nd to Phil Hill in the championship one point behind. So, had he not been killed he would have been in contention.
    Duncan Rollo

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Type
    The German GP came between the British and Italian GPs in 1961.

    He finished a posthumous 2nd to Phil Hill in the championship one point behind. So, had he not been killed he would have been in contention.
    There is a horrible irony in the fact that both times a US driver has won the championship, their team mate has been killed in or as a result of the race in which they took the title.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
    In answer to the first question - Yes
    As for the opinions of Derek Warwick, maybe he never had that good a handle on what makes a winning Grand Prix driver? Maybe I'm being unnecessarily provocative. Maybe GV had psychological weaknesses but to quote Marx he wasn't a 'ferret-faced chiseller' (Groucho)
    Quote Originally Posted by Parabolica
    Maybe you are correct about Warwick. I don't recall him being as fast as Villenueve. Nor do I recall him doing anything as reckless. I know that, for some, Zandvoort 1979 was fantastic. Personally, I thought it was idiotic.

    It was his never-give-up approach, of course. But a Grand Prix champion has to look at the bigger picture. A fantastic racer, no doubt. But well short of having a Champions focus.

    I also never bought into the Pironi-as-a-pantomime-villain myth, as pedalled by Nigel Roebuck. In deed, I always suspected that the likes of Roebuck had already found Pironi guilty of being French long before the Imola incident and was more than happy to crucify him on a one-sided, uncorroborated, statement from Villenueve.

    There was no Divine actions on the Saturday at Hockenheim in 1982. Just a man in agonising pain. Sadly.
    John Watson shared the same opinion and he's a race winner and not to mention an under rated racer.

    He thought Gilles drove for the wrong team and that his talent needed managing and Watson thought McLaren could probably tame/refine him.

    I've remember coming across similar comments from a Lotus mechanic regarding Ronnie Peterson "very quick, but probably needed managing" and thus I would say the same about Stefan Bellof. Notice a pattern here? Lairy/flair drivers. Schekter used to have a reputation.

    I don't think Gilles was psychologically weak but his mentality was that he lived life at his fullest and certainly if not Zolder then a helicopter crash/fatality would be unsurprising.

    Gilles raced to win and far too much of a romantic. Racing for points wasn't part of his make up (Jacky Ickx uses the same 'excuse'. I'm not sure what to make of him as he comes across as an intelligent guy).

    In effect going into Zolder '82 with Gilles' frame of mind and his mentality it was almost like a ticking time bomb.

    Sayin that Gilles was undoubtedly a great driver as he could polish a turd but perhaps not an all time great (multiple WDCs) if he couldn't be tamed and I doubt he would want or convinced to be tamed.

    Also worth noting is that regardless of team order Gilles could have been WDC if he was ruthless enough. Schekter remarked that he was was worried looking in the mirror with Gilles up his backside at the 1979 Italian GP.

    As for Roebuck I admire his knowledge and work as a journalist. Although he struck a number of friendships and relationships with drivers there is good and bad points to this and unfortunately he as very biased towards a number of drivers. He can be all to happy to slam Mansell who was a fantastic racer and yet be happily talk about Montoya even though he was a divisive character within the GP paddock as much as Mansell was! I seem to remember Roebuck mentioning Jenks had similar contradictory logic but there is no doubt Roebuck has his favourites.

  9. #19
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    How about, on the basis of early 1980 and the summer of 1983, the other Dijon protagonist?

    Rene Arnoux, possibly the fastest Frenchman of all time.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedge
    John Watson shared the same opinion and he's a race winner and not to mention an under rated racer.
    And one more thoughtful about such things than your average GP driver.

    Quote Originally Posted by wedge
    I don't think Gilles was psychologically weak but his mentality was that he lived life at his fullest and certainly if not Zolder then a helicopter crash/fatality would be unsurprising.
    Or a road accident.

    The stories of Villeneuve's helicopter flying bear out your view. One is inevitably reminded of Colin McRae.

    Quote Originally Posted by wedge
    Gilles raced to win and far too much of a romantic. Racing for points wasn't part of his make up (Jacky Ickx uses the same 'excuse'. I'm not sure what to make of him as he comes across as an intelligent guy).
    I think it is possible not to care about racing for points and still drive within oneself. Ickx, who never appeared to be in the Villeneuve mould in this regard, I believe bears this out.

    As for Ickx himself, he seems, from what one has read, to be rather a changed character these days, a fact he appears to recognise — somewhat more thoughtful and grateful towards others. I think it was David Hobbs who recalled him less than fondly from their days together in the John Wyer sports car team, describing Ickx as extremely selfish. Few say that of him now.

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