Webber unlapping himself during SC period

[Warriwa]

Fantastic idea Vhat. The only problem I see with that is the marshalls won't get a decent gap between cars to allow them to clear something from the track. It is workable though.

[Knock-on]

Fantastic idea Vhat. The only problem I see with that is the marshalls won't get a decent gap between cars to allow them to clear something from the track. It is workable though.

Correct. It's a popular idea but ill thought out that the cars could be regulated to a safe speed by introducing some type of limit or limiter. However, you will still have a track full of cars delaying recovery or potentially introducing additional risk. The SC is the best solution but releasing the lapped drivers is the issue.

Should a lapped driver with no realistic chance of points be artificially released and be able to move up the leader table because of a SC? Should a driver in the lead by 30 seconds and who may have been really pushing his tyres overtaking backmarkers to try and build up a sufficient lead then be penalised by seeing all the lapped drivers pass him and the 2nd place and be artificially installed on his gearbox? At least if there were lapped drivers behind him, it will give him a second or so buffer to try and get a break that he would have formally had.

Safety cars are necessary and by bunching the drivers up, slower cars are going to benefit and faster lose out but lets try to maintain the integrity of the race as much as possible to not further penalise the leaders.

[vhatever]

Fantastic idea Vhat. The only problem I see with that is the marshalls won't get a decent gap between cars to allow them to clear something from the track. It is workable though.

What I would do is have a relatively small oval track where they basically drive in circles. Pit lane limter speed, as I suggested before, still turned on. When the track is cleared, the leader is allowed to leave the oval, but all cars wanting to leave the oval must have completed the same amount of laps the leader has.

Size is actually irrelevant, but "small" for cost concerns. Doesn't even need to be an oval, could be nearly a "two lane" track with hairpin corners on either end. But F1 has a habit of only worrying about sharp sticks after someone's eye is already poked out.

[N. Jones]

Is this a bad rule because a fast car (Webber's) was 1) a lap down 2) was able to unlap itself, and 3) eventually score points? Or is it bad for some other reason?

[zako85]

The 2011 Singapore Grand Prix was the muse of the new Safety Car regulations.

Because of lapped traffic, after 1 lap of racing after the Safety Car, 2nd place was already 9 seconds down on the leader. He was 4 seconds down by the time he even reached the green flag.

I don't understand the discomfort here. If there was no safety car, then the 2nd place car would have to deal with lap car traffic anyways, wouldn't it?

[zako85]

The way I see it, no matter what rules are set to deal with safety cars, you still end in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

If the lapped cars are allowed to unlap themselves before the green flag, then you will have people complain about why this happened, as in this thread.

On the other hand, if lapped cars are not allowed to unlap themselves, then it will not be fair to them. Suppose some car's position is number 20 and the 19 car is 10 seconds in front of it. Let's suppose the safety car is now between them. The 19 car can go around the lap to get behind the procession. After the green flag, the 20 car is now something like +1 minute behind the 19 car, even though it was only 10 seconds behind before the safety car came on track.

I personally like the idea of letting the lapped traffic to unlap because it will make the restart more exciting. These days there aren't as many lapped cars as say in the early 90s, when the leader could normally lap almost the entire field and sometimes his teammate, so waiting for everyone to be unlapped shouldn't take long now (on average at least).

[AndyL]

On the other hand, if lapped cars are not allowed to unlap themselves, then it will not be fair to them. Suppose some car's position is number 20 and the 19 car is 10 seconds in front of it. Let's suppose the safety car is now between them. The 19 car can go around the lap to get behind the procession. After the green flag, the 20 car is now something like +1 minute behind the 19 car, even though it was only 10 seconds behind before the safety car came on track.

A well-made point. It is the one really unfair thing about the "traditional" safety car rule. The guy who has only just been lapped loses a whole lap on the guy he was chasing but who hadn't quite been lapped yet.

Given that it's suffered by someone who's already been lapped and in all probability won't be scoring points, I'm not sure it justifies keeping the safety car out for an extra 3 laps for unlapping though.

As you say there is no perfect rule.

[keysersoze]

On the other hand, if lapped cars are not allowed to unlap themselves, then it will not be fair to them. Suppose some car's position is number 20 and the 19 car is 10 seconds in front of it. Let's suppose the safety car is now between them. The 19 car can go around the lap to get behind the procession. After the green flag, the 20 car is now something like +1 minute behind the 19 car, even though it was only 10 seconds behind before the safety car came on track.

I personally like the idea of letting the lapped traffic to unlap because it will make the restart more exciting. These days there aren't as many lapped cars as say in the early 90s, when the leader could normally lap almost the entire field and sometimes his teammate, so waiting for everyone to be unlapped shouldn't take long now (on average at least).

The first car behind the SC should be the leader of the race, not the car in 19th place.

[truefan72]

The way I see it, no matter what rules are set to deal with safety cars, you still end in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

If the lapped cars are allowed to unlap themselves before the green flag, then you will have people complain about why this happened, as in this thread.

On the other hand, if lapped cars are not allowed to unlap themselves, then it will not be fair to them. Suppose some car's position is number 20 and the 19 car is 10 seconds in front of it. Let's suppose the safety car is now between them. The 19 car can go around the lap to get behind the procession. After the green flag, the 20 car is now something like +1 minute behind the 19 car, even though it was only 10 seconds behind before the safety car came on track.

I personally like the idea of letting the lapped traffic to unlap because it will make the restart more exciting. These days there aren't as many lapped cars as say in the early 90s, when the leader could normally lap almost the entire field and sometimes his teammate, so waiting for everyone to be unlapped shouldn't take long now (on average at least).

excellent points

I too think the unlapping scenario is the best
My issue is with the time it takes to get it done

1. As soon as the SC picks up the leaders, then the lapped cars should have the go ahead to unlap themselves, so this can be done at the same time the marshals are doing what they need to do.
Of course, safely too.
2. There needs to be more than 1 safety car, perhaps 3, with one in each sector, ready to pick up the leader wherever he is, then the rest of the pack can then fall in tow. This will eliminate the extra half lap it takes , while the top cars "artificially" gain a pitstop and holding up proceedings even more. Thus penalizing anyone who actually had the temerity to pit during actual race conditions. This has long been a thorn on my side. One could be in p2 make a pitstop, ,fall back to p10, then the SC comes and at least the top 3-5 cars get a free stop, don't lose position and you end up farther down than you should be.
3. the whole process needs to be handled more efficient and quicker by teams, drivers and race control
for example, they give the call for cars to unlap themselves, and then for some reason it takes another half lap before the blokes realize that and then go around. Either teams are not getting the info quick enough and passing it along to their drivers, or the drivers themselves take their sweet time to proceed.

[steveaki13]

excellent points

I too think the unlapping scenario is the best
My issue is with the time it takes to get it done

1. As soon as the SC picks up the leaders, then the lapped cars should have the go ahead to unlap themselves, so this can be done at the same time the marshals are doing what they need to do.
Of course, safely too.
2. There needs to be more than 1 safety car, perhaps 3, with one in each sector, ready to pick up the leader wherever he is, then the rest of the pack can then fall in tow. This will eliminate the extra half lap it takes , while the top cars "artificially" gain a pitstop and holding up proceedings even more. Thus penalizing anyone who actually had the temerity to pit during actual race conditions. This has long been a thorn on my side. One could be in p2 make a pitstop, ,fall back to p10, then the SC comes and at least the top 3-5 cars get a free stop, don't lose position and you end up farther down than you should be.
3. the whole process needs to be handled more efficient and quicker by teams, drivers and race control
for example, they give the call for cars to unlap themselves, and then for some reason it takes another half lap before the blokes realize that and then go around. Either teams are not getting the info quick enough and passing it along to their drivers, or the drivers themselves take their sweet time to proceed.

Interesting Post.

I still maintain the cars a lap or more down could just drop to the tail of the field.

But in relation to your points.

1. I am not sure thats wise. Sometimes incidents that bring out the SC vary and thus it would be unwise to allow cars to move around the circuit straight away.
2. This could be a winner. I mean Le Mans do it albeit with a longer circuit but it would certainly stop the wasted laps. If cars lapped in each train moved through and just joined the next SC train, that would leave a 20-25 second gap ahead of each train at the restart.
3. Would agree with that. The whole exercise once its clear the type of incident being handled is under control is very slow and needs to be streamlined.

Good Points Truefan