Webber's "problems" are just a "set up" to benefit Vettel. Period.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Not really. What's the difference in disobeying team orders and not having the balls to go all the way and disobeying team orders and going through with it. Both of them are rotten team players, which to me is the very definition of a champion. Nobody ever won a WDC by being a team player, but by grabbing any point they could get.
I blame Pirelli and the dwarf. If it wasn't for the ecomentalist rules and the comedy tires, we wouldn't be seeing teams stopping racing and handing out idiot team orders in the second race of the year.

[Big Ben]

It found it also quite odd how bad Webber got from 2010 to 2011. While his team mate was winning race after race in the best car on the grid the Australian barely got a few second positions... and this after fighting for the WDC to the last race the previous year.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It found it also quite odd how bad Webber got from 2010 to 2011. While his team mate was winning race after race in the best car on the grid the Australian barely got a few second positions... and this after fighting for the WDC to the last race the previous year.

Webber and Vettel have very different driving styles. If the car fits Vettel's preference it is bad for Webber and if Webber feels comfortable in it, it doesn't work for Vettel. That's why Mark was better than Vettel in the early races last year, when the RB was lacking rear downforce. Once that was corrected and Vettel felt comfortable with it again, Mark faded and Vettel took off on his 3-race winning trot.
The 2011 fit Vettel's driving style like arse on bucket, which is why Mark had a hard time extracting good times out of it. I never understood RB's wisdom of having two drivers with such fundamentally different driving styles.

[Zico]

Not really. What's the difference in disobeying team orders and not having the balls to go all the way and disobeying team orders and going through with it. Both of them are rotten team players, which to me is the very definition of a champion. Nobody ever won a WDC by being a team player, but by grabbing any point they could get.
I blame Pirelli and the dwarf. If it wasn't for the ecomentalist rules and the comedy tires, we wouldn't be seeing teams stopping racing and handing out idiot team orders in the second race of the year.

I see carrying through with the overtake directly against team orders as a far bigger deal than having a few nibbles then backing off. I 100% agree about the tyres though... that needs to change.

[Valve Bounce]

It found it also quite odd how bad Webber got from 2010 to 2011. While his team mate was winning race after race in the best car on the grid the Australian barely got a few second positions... and this after fighting for the WDC to the last race the previous year.

Apart from anything else, many of Mark's starts were shyte.
But lets face it - he is doing better than our Cricket team, outstanding homework and all.

Dang!! I forgot - our Cricket team came second in India. Well, Mark will have to do some homework too, I guess.

[Hawkmoon]

I think what makes Vettel's actions bad are not so much that he disobeyed a team order (he's a triple champion and didn't get there by playing nice all the time) it's that he took advantage of a teammate who thought he wasn't going to be threatened. If Vettel had said to Horner something like "stuff your team orders, tell Mark I'm coming to get him" then at least Webber would have known what Vettel was doing and driven accordingly. He may still have lost to his teammate but at least he would have had a fighting chance. Instead he turns his engine down believing the race was his only to get mugged by Vettel. That's not cool and nor is lying about what he'd done afterwards.

Personally, I think Vettel needs to grow up a little. He can come across as petulant when things don't go his way.

[Koz]

I think what makes Vettel's actions bad are not so much that he disobeyed a team order (he's a triple champion and didn't get there by playing nice all the time) it's that he took advantage of a teammate who thought he wasn't going to be threatened. If Vettel had said to Horner something like "stuff your team orders, tell Mark I'm coming to get him" then at least Webber would have known what Vettel was doing and driven accordingly. He may still have lost to his teammate but at least he would have had a fighting chance. Instead he turns his engine down believing the race was his only to get mugged by Vettel.

My thoughts on Vettel aside, I am sorry but WTF Mark Weber.

Did he not see Vettel closing in on him in his mirrors? Was he so completely ignorant of what was happening behind him?
Vettel didn't get him in one lap, was there not enough time to change his engine maps?

Everyone of us knew Webber was going to be attacked, are we so naive to think that Webber didn't know this too?

Lets get real. Regardless of team orders, Webber knew what was happening, he put up a fight and he lost.
There is no point in turning this into a "Webber was only passed because Vettel cheated".

And also, why the hell didn't he fight back afterwards? Lost morale? Horner's orders? Or just not enough pace?

[Ranger]

And also, why the hell didn't he fight back afterwards? Lost morale? Horner's orders? Or just not enough pace?

You know those 4 things that connect the car to the road that everyone has been complaining about? :\

It was dumb luck that Vettel had enough of his to last him the race.

[Ranger]

I think what makes Vettel's actions bad are not so much that he disobeyed a team order (he's a triple champion and didn't get there by playing nice all the time) it's that he took advantage of a teammate who thought he wasn't going to be threatened. If Vettel had said to Horner something like "stuff your team orders, tell Mark I'm coming to get him" then at least Webber would have known what Vettel was doing and driven accordingly. He may still have lost to his teammate but at least he would have had a fighting chance. Instead he turns his engine down believing the race was his only to get mugged by Vettel. That's not cool and nor is lying about what he'd done afterwards.

Personally, I think Vettel needs to grow up a little. He can come across as petulant when things don't go his way.

Agreed.

[dj_bytedisaster]

My thoughts on Vettel aside, I am sorry but WTF Mark Weber.

Did he not see Vettel closing in on him in his mirrors? Was he so completely ignorant of what was happening behind him?
Vettel didn't get him in one lap, was there not enough time to change his engine maps?

Everyone of us knew Webber was going to be attacked, are we so naive to think that Webber didn't know this too?

Lets get real. Regardless of team orders, Webber knew what was happening, he put up a fight and he lost.
There is no point in turning this into a "Webber was only passed because Vettel cheated".

And also, why the hell didn't he fight back afterwards? Lost morale? Horner's orders? Or just not enough pace?

My thoughts exactly. All the babbling about Webber having turned down his engine is utter crap. Yes he probably had it turned down until Seb caught up to him, but there's no chance in hell he kept it in eco mode once he had a mirror full of German. The fight lasted half a lap with Seb being on the "better" (read: softer) and fresher tires, yet Mark fended him off for half a lap. You don't do that with a turned down engine. He had a fighting chance and he lost and I don't believe for a second that he didn't know what was coming - he did the same thing twice before himself, so he knows what it looks like.
I didn't like Vettels move particularly and from a team perspective it was wrong, but RB has been a conglomerate of two warring drivers since 2010. Mark is being slapped from left to right by a driver more than a decade his junior and he understandably doesn't like it, but he had everything to win in 2010 and lost. It's not RB, who made him the number 2, he did it himself the same way as Massa.