Webber's "problems" are just a "set up" to benefit Vettel. Period.

[markabilly]

As many of you may recall, I have never been a fan of Webber aka "da Chopper".
The reason is his nickname. I thought he was too willing to chop people throughout his career

Someone around here said about five or so years ago, that in the good ole days, he would not have been tolerated in F1. My response is "tolerated" would not been the issue, cause he would have touched wheels once too often and died, perhaps taking another driver with him.


In the big "Turkey bash" of a few years ago, I felt the accident was really a racing incident and did not join in the bashing of Vettel. At most it was 60/40 fault on Webber if one wants to do a stop action reveiw in milliscoends of the accident (a very unrealistic way to do it, but hey the last couple of years that is how the stewards hand out penalities nowadays) because things happen very fast, almost no time to react, driver is sitting low in the car, almost no visibility--and thanks to the good doc, my own personal experience in one of these monsters....the g-forces...


Anyway, today was enough. Webber is getting screwed to benefit Vettel.

More to the point: it is not that Webber was passed today, but it is just the gradual accumulation of this stuff.....

Best examples are these starts by Webber---

I think that Webber's problems in starting are not problems of his, but something with the team electronics done deliberately.

See, (again thanks to da taz), I know I could line up on the grid, push the buttons at the right time, and blast down the track. pin: Now that first corner, the only real question would be is when I crash out, how many others are going to go crashing with me.... ..but until then, I will not be looking like I got the car in fifth gear

Anyway, one start where it looks like Webber is starting the car in fifth gear instead of first gear, I could understand, but this many times in the last couple of years???


Once is an accident, twice is incompetent, three or more times is deliberate on the part of someone.

Why?
(1) if you got a team mate next to you, who is a threat, why not leave him behind at the start? hummmmmmm


(2) More importantly and far more beneficial, why not turn him into a rolling blockade or a chicane, and screw up the others as they try to get down the grid.....nothing like a little "dodge the slow car" to take a driver's attention off trying to pass Mr. Vettel.



Now one might think that is just me being crazy and forgetting to wear my tin hat, and is no more likely than having a team mate deliberately crash out to give another team mate a victory.....no way, you say....


Sure.....

[catty]

one might think that is just me being crazy

You're right there

[Tazio]

billy's back

[markabilly]

billy's back

Probably what Webber looks like under his helmet, when he starts a race

[dj_bytedisaster]

Do we really need two Vettel bashing threads on the same day? Although I agree that Mark has accumulated quite a number of botched starts, the idea that someone in the team does it deliberately is quite ridiculous. What the teams care about the most is the constructors championship, because that brings money, while the WDC doesn't. It's a nice thing to have, but it's the position in the constructors championship that brings the money, so screwing up one of your drivers for the other is going to cost millions. And money isn't even the only thing. the constructors title brings other things like the best pit position, too.

[jens]

The Red Bull team dynamics are certainly interesting. I was thinking about it today more in detail and thought I'd share some thoughts. There are some different characters together and it is interesting to see, how do they fit together.

Webber is a straightforward guy, who I sort of like and I am sure it would be interesting to chat with him. He also has some very clear views on different aspects. However, his let-down is that at times he seems to lack common sense and hunch of the big picture, which has been a setback in both racing situations and also in being a team player. I remember in Abu Dhabi last year the team had to call Webber into the pits for a tyre change, because he didn't give the position up to Vettel, who was in a championship battle. Webber wants fairness in racing, but lack of big picture can work against him on occasion – like happened also today.

Vettel seems to enjoy being a kid, who likes to have fun without taking things seriously or ponder about the serious consequences each situation can bring. He was given a team order, but his reacted to it like „so what, I'll go and race for the win - let's see, what happens“. While people on the forums are in rage - "this is unfair!" - for him race is a game - "let's have some fun, what's the big deal?" As long as he is immensly successful, he can afford such approach. But one day the attitude might bite him and he needs to take things more seriously. Maybe it will happen in another team for instance, where there are different team dynamics and principles.

Horner has to play the role of a mediator and manager between those two in race conditions. He tries to have an easy-going approach and doesn't come across as strict and frank as, say, Brawn and Todt, who would say clearly „this is the team order, this is how things are“. Horner's way of leading seems more like a suggestion - „okay, it would be nice if you did things like this.“ But the drivers will have their own interpretation. Drivers remain their own men without being micro-managed in every way like Ron Dennis likes to do. In some ways it is good, but it can bring setbacks like we have seen.

Obviously they have all adapted to being colleagues of each other. This is the fifth season of Vettel and Webber racing together in the same team and they know each other like the back of their hand. If there was some problem or something was unbearable, Webber would have left, but he has stayed on and adapted - „it is, what it is“.

From Horner's point of view this way of management between those individuals is bound to create some misunderstandings from time-to-time. In order to avoid any problems it looks like they need a more systemized and pre-arranged attitude to team work and co-operation. But it looks like they have all adapted to this, put up with some uncomfortable moments, and carry on. After all, regardless of all, the team has been incredibly successful. So maybe that's their philosophy - we can have a problem from time-to-time, but overall we are doing very well and this is what counts. It keeps the drivers competitive and sharp as well if they interpret things in their own way and really fight in races.

[DexDexter]

The interesting thing to me is the fact that Red Bull keep Webber year after year even if some factions of the team openly criticize him and support Vettel, so there must some sort of division at Red Bull, I suspect. Some of the guys like Webber and see his treatment unfair while others think Vettel should get all the support he needs.

[jens]

The interesting thing to me is the fact that Red Bull keep Webber year after year even if some factions of the team openly criticize him and support Vettel, so there must some sort of division at Red Bull, I suspect. Some of the guys like Webber and see his treatment unfair while others think Vettel should get all the support he needs.

I have pondering about that too, because Mark doesn't have the mentality of a Massa to really become a #2 driver and a nice team player in a race. There are some different personalities in the team, but it looks like despite temporary setbacks they are all very professional about it and get on with the job. I think the fact that Webber is a very fast racing driver and also probably has some other qualities that are not visible outside (good at testing/feedback? His general attitude/mindset, which has a good effect on team's competitive athmosphere?) has motivated the team to keep him, while overlooking some possible weaknesses. After all, regardless of what some people at RBR might think, Mateschitz and Horner rate Webber very highly. They are the men, who make decisions.

After all, it recently surfaced (thanks, Bernie!) that Mateschitz & Horner decided to keep Webber despite Hamilton being on the market! Regardless of who Webber is or might be, he was considered as a better driver for RBR team harmony than Hamilton. I think it all tells me that the RBR's intra-team problems are blown out of proportions. They have some uncomfortable situations, but as the saying goes - it is part of the job. Chinese GP will come - all will be fine again and both drivers will fiercely fight again.

[DexDexter]

I have pondering about that too, because Mark doesn't have the mentality of a Massa to really become a #2 driver and a nice team player in a race. There are some different personalities in the team, but it looks like despite temporary setbacks they are all very professional about it and get on with the job. I think the fact that Webber is a very fast racing driver and also probably has some other qualities that are not visible outside (good at testing/feedback? His general attitude/mindset, which has a good effect on team's competitive athmosphere?) has motivated the team to keep him, while overlooking some possible weaknesses. After all, regardless of what some people at RBR might think, Mateschitz and Horner rate Webber very highly. They are the men, who make decisions.

After all, it recently surfaced (thanks, Bernie!) that Mateschitz & Horner decided to keep Webber despite Hamilton being on the market! Regardless of who Webber is or might be, he was considered as a better driver for RBR team harmony than Hamilton. I think it all tells me that the RBR's intra-team problems are blown out of proportions. They have some uncomfortable situations, but as the saying goes - it is part of the job. Chinese GP will come - all will be fine again and both drivers will fiercely fight again.

I agree, except I'm not quite sure how much say Horner really has in the end. I mean today Seb just basically laughed at his order and did what he wanted.

[Mark]

John Watson was on the radio this morning saying Horner should suspend Vettel for one race in order to reassert his authority in the team.