How good is Vettel?

[Bagwan]

Well, I think I understand what RB and Merc wanted, but many people here shout that drivers should be team players. But team play isn't a one-way road. If drivers are expected to respect the team's interests, the teams should do so with the driver's wishes. Those don't always match, but there is a thing called 'a compromise'.

Let's have a look at the RB situation. Vettel was pretty much faster than Webber all weekend and he gambled in quali to save himself an extra set of fresh softer tires. With the current clown tires that's a huge strategic advantage he worked hard and took risks for.
Then at the first stop it went pear shaped, because he was called in two laps too early. That's what gave Mark the lead, not his stellar driving. At the last stop Vettel took on his extra set of softs and on the one and a half laps until Mark's stop he took a mammoth 4 seconds out of Mark and was right on his tailpipe in no time. So basically the MULTI21 was code for 'We know you gambled to get that extra set of fresh tires, but now we screw you obver and don't allow you to make use of it, because we only care about the constructor's points'.
What kept them from saying 'Seb you have 3 laps to make it work. If you can't please back off and make sure the tires don't go boom. and for Pete's sake don't pile into Mark'. That would have been a reasonable compromise between Vettel's interests and the team's. They chose to enforce their interests 100% by Order de Mufti and Vettel enforced his. Only one could win.

A question for you , sir :
Do you have , or have you ever had employees ?

[dj_bytedisaster]

I'd just like to address the two things that I bolded in your post.
First - Yes, there is a thing called compromise, but there's also a thing called employer-employee relationship. It's different than a marriage where both partners are supposed to be equal. It's more of a hirarchy, and Vettel seems to have it backwards, acting as if he's bigger than the team/employer.

All valid points, but it is not supposed to be an Emperor/Serf relationship either. I was born and raised in East Germany. I know the result of one side calling the shots and one side expected to follow instructions without thinking for himself. Trust me, it's the second best solution. Where were all you people calling for slavish obedience, when Mark gave the team the finger in the past? Is it acceptable for an employer to troll his employees the way RB did with Vettel (telling him to hold back in lap 26 only to forbid him from racing when he catches Mark?)

Second - I think it would be more correct if you would have said "the team gambled in quali". The team saved him a set of tires, I would think, in anticipation of fighting Kimi or Alonso in the later stages, not his teammate.

Ah yeah, how convenient. If it is a good thing, like saving a set of tires - put the credit on the team and if it is a mistimed pitstop, blame it on the driver. That the team does all the work might be the case in dictatorships like McLaren, but as far as I know, such things have mostly been decided by the drivers and their race engineers at RB in the past. That is why we saw Button and Perez clowning arownd on slicks in the wet quali at Melbourne and Mark and Vettel didn't do such stuff. Vettel had a major hand in the quali gamble and has to take most of the blame for the mistimed first pitstop as the team had asked him to tell them, when the track was good enough and Vettel got it wrong.
So if they're prepared to put the ball in his court for the timing of the tire change, they cannot deny him a say in whether to overtake his team mate or not. It's just inconsistent.

[dj_bytedisaster]

A question for you , sir :
Do you have , or have you ever had employees ?

Yes. I've been running my own company since 2004.

[Firstgear]

Ah yeah, how convenient. If it is a good thing, like saving a set of tires - put the credit on the team and if it is a mistimed pitstop, blame it on the driver.

Vettel is part of the team, so yes the team saved him a set of tires. The engineers/analysts came up with a do-able plan to get an advantage, and Vettel executed it, resulting in a set of extra tires.
Mistimed pitstop? I can't remember him being blamed for a mistimed pitstop. If he came in a bit later than others, I'd say it's the prudent thing to do. When you're trying to win a championship you have to minimize mistakes and finish high in the points consistently (like Alonso showed last year). If you're gambling for one good result/win, then you can come in first in tricky conditions and try to luck into something. So I think Vettel did the right thing. A podium due to a late pitstop is better than aquaplaning into the gravel because you came in too early.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Vettel is part of the team, so yes the team saved him a set of tires. The engineers/analysts came up with a do-able plan to get an advantage, and Vettel executed it, resulting in a set of extra tires.
Mistimed pitstop? I can't remember him being blamed for a mistimed pitstop. If he came in a bit later than others, I'd say it's the prudent thing to do. When you're trying to win a championship you have to minimize mistakes and finish high in the points consistently (like Alonso showed last year). If you're gambling for one good result/win, then you can come in first in tricky conditions and try to luck into something. So I think Vettel did the right thing. A podium due to a late pitstop is better than aquaplaning into the gravel because you came in too early.

The mistimed pitstop was his first, where he changed from Inters to slicks. He came in at lap 5 which was two laps early and lost him the lead. Did you even watch the race??

[Bagwan]

Yes. I've been running my own company since 2004.

It's hard to give an example in your field , not knowing what that is , but how would you treat an employee who directly disregards a request , risking not just his/her own work to the moment , but also the future economic success of your business , at the same time as causing extreme disruption within the business , itself ?

[Firstgear]

The mistimed pitstop was his first, where he changed from Inters to slicks. He came in at lap 5 which was two laps early and lost him the lead. Did you even watch the race??

I watched it - but it seems so long ago. I thought he lost the lead coming in after the others.
You say he came in too early, eh? - well with a screw up like that, the team should take away his #1 driver status.

[gloomyDAY]

How would he do that? He just let Brawn screw him up his rear end in public and with that he comprehensivly made himsef the Mark Webber at Mercedes - the designated #2 driver.

I totally agree. Rosberg should've told Brawn to "go f-ing swivel" and passed Hamilton. After taking a week to think about the incident I see that Vettel made the smart decision by passing Webber. On the day that Alonso had a DNF, Vettel made sure that he got maximum points in order to start a strong WDC campaign.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It's hard to give an example in your field , not knowing what that is , but how would you treat an employee who directly disregards a request , risking not just his/her own work to the moment , but also the future economic success of your business , at the same time as causing extreme disruption within the business , itself ?

The field is software engineering or as we used to call it in the olden days - programming. Aren't you over-dramatizing Vettels actions here? He didn't jeopardize the future success of RB. The most he jeopardized were 40 points on a day when the closest and most likely opposition (Ferrari, Lotus) graciously decided to not score much.
First of all, many people (and sadly RB included) don't give enought credits to Mark and Seb for their ability to race each other. They crashed ONCE - almost three years ago. If you feel a need to still use that as an excuse to forbid them to race each other, you need new drivers.
As for the comparison to my employees. Well you can't really compare that. First of all, I don't troll my employees like RB did with Vettel, so I tend to think that my folks aren't often in a situation, where they feel like disregarding my requests. I also don't tell my employees that they can't type more than sixty characters a minute 'to save the keyboard'.
If someone would disregard a request of mine that was idiotic to begin with, i'd lock myself into my office hoping that the embarrassment would pass. If someone disregarded a request and botched things up, he'd find his family jewels in the dog's food bowl. But if he made it work, I'd ask him his reasons for disregarding me, he'd get the chance to come up with an explanation. But if he decided to come up with a lame apology that's as sincere as a human rights speech by Wen Jiabao, woofy would get an extra ration of balls. I don't run my company like North Korea. If you want to get the best out of people, you have to work with them - not rule them.
If I had been at that pit wall, I would have granted Vettel at least an attempt to make his intentions work, but they didn't.

[Bagwan]

The field is software engineering or as we used to call it in the olden days - programming. Aren't you over-dramatizing Vettels actions here? He didn't jeopardize the future success of RB. The most he jeopardized were 40 points on a day when the closest and most likely opposition (Ferrari, Lotus) graciously decided to not score much.
First of all, many people (and sadly RB included) don't give enought credits to Mark and Seb for their ability to race each other. They crashed ONCE - almost three years ago. If you feel a need to still use that as an excuse to forbid them to race each other, you need new drivers.
As for the comparison to my employees. Well you can't really compare that. First of all, I don't troll my employees like RB did with Vettel, so I tend to think that my folks aren't often in a situation, where they feel like disregarding my requests. I also don't tell my employees that they can't type more than sixty characters a minute 'to save the keyboard'.
If someone would disregard a request of mine that was idiotic to begin with, i'd lock myself into my office hoping that the embarrassment would pass. If someone disregarded a request and botched things up, he'd find his family jewels in the dog's food bowl. But if he made it work, I'd ask him his reasons for disregarding me, he'd get the chance to come up with an explanation. But if he decided to come up with a lame apology that's as sincere as a human rights speech by Wen Jiabao, woofy would get an extra ration of balls. I don't run my company like North Korea. If you want to get the best out of people, you have to work with them - not rule them.
If I had been at that pit wall, I would have granted Vettel at least an attempt to make his intentions work, but they didn't.

The team got the same number of points it wanted , but , instead of them seeing two smiling faces on the podium , they got sour mugs on both .
In my experience , a sour expression on any member of the team says you're in for a rough ride .

You need everyone pulling to win , at the same time .

They now have two drivers who they will have trouble controlling , not just one .


As you mentioned earlier in the thread , it was Sebastian's own mistake , coming in too early , that put him behind .
What then , gave him the right to fight Mark , when the team asked him to hold station ?