How good is Vettel?

[faster69]

Slightly drifted into Webber? Now THAT is funny. Reality was a stupid arrogant move that took out both cars, then called Mark crazy for holding a line.

And of course, in your eyes direct and deliberate disobedience of the people that right your paychecks is just fine too. Especially if you change your stories on why you did it for a while.

i think you're overstating how much vettel drifted into webber. i already acknowledged that vettel is emotionally stunted. like alonso he thinks he's never wrong.

vettel is the greatest driver in the world. he can disobey management because he has more power than a christian horner or helmut marko. vettel makes the rules in that team. the only person he has to listen to at the end of the day is dietrich mateschitz. a christian horner grows on trees. a vettel comes along once every 10-20 years.

[henners88]

vettel has a problem with taking blame, but he's emotionally stunted. i wouldn't say shady. he slightly drifted onto webber at turkey 2010 and blamed webber.

I agree with airshifter on this one. 'Slightly drifted' is letting him off lightly IMO. It was more a swerve that his team mate had little chance to avoid. Seb had a few of these incidents that year, most notably at the starts of races. Silverstone 2010 he got off to a bad start letting his team mate pass in to the first corner only to swerve across the front of Hamilton's wing puncturing his own rear tyre. That mistake took Seb to the back of the field and lost him any chance of victory. At Hockenheim the same year he also got off to a bad start and this time it was Alonso up the inside, to which Seb swerved in what looked like an attempt to scare Fernando in to backing out. It didn't work and Seb found himself looking to escape contact whilst putting himself further down the field.

There was a lot of talk around that time about Vettel intimidation tactics on starts and whilst overtaking but thankfully he's calmed down a tad. Tactics like that only work if drivers feel inclined to actually move out of the way. It wasn't long ago he forced Button on to the grass at the start of the Japanese GP, but due to the regulations surrounding start practices, he benefited. Had he done the same on the following lap with an overtaking car, he would likely have earned a penalty. Vettel has a few flaws when it comes to defending his position, but luckily for him he's had the car not to be in those positions very often. This season he's driven very well and is showing he has the ability to overtake cleanly and effectively.

[jens]

Okay, I moved several posts from the Chinese GP thread to here.

Regarding the "start tactics" I think Vettel had taken a few tips from his idol Schumacher, who used to block quite a lot back in the day. I remember Montoya was particularly furious. But stewards have become really strict on this matter, last year Vettel got a drive through penalty for a strong defence driving, so he has had to ease off a little bit.

Funny and subjective discussion up there about Alonso v Vettel. Obviously Alonso is older and more experienced, so he is supposed to be wiser and smarter in some ways (it would be strange if he wasn't!), but I wouldn't question mental toughness of a driver, who has twice come from behind and still delivered the WDC. Obviously neither Alonso nor Vettel likes to get beaten by their team-mates, so that's academic here.

[faster69]

montoya was always angry. came from frustration of not being good enough. always was someone else's fault. remember at imola he called schumacher blind and stupid for just maintaining his line.

and agree about vettel's mental toughness.

[henners88]

montoya was always angry. came from frustration of not being good enough. always was someone else's fault. remember at imola he called schumacher blind and stupid for just maintaining his line.

Montoya was a little emotional at the best of times but that incident was typical Schumacher. He knew JPM was along side him and chose to force him off the track. Michael was entitled to hold the line but it wasn't very gentlemanly and I thought the mickey taking from JPM was deserved.

[Lee23]

He's good but i think RedBull are also a contributing factor to his success

[henners88]

He's good but i think RedBull are also a contributing factor to his success

Are you seriously trying to suggest Vettel wouldn't beat the entire field even if he was on a pushbike?!

Lets be realistic now, Vettel could walk a lap and beat a 200mph Ferrari.

[faster69]

schumacher stuck him on the grass -- as he was entitled to do.

button did the same to vettel last year at hockenheim. there was no uproar.

montoya should have lifted because there was no room for a pass.

[henners88]

Button put Vettel off the track on a run off area which had a 50 metre allowance to the barrier and carried no disadvantage. In fact Vettel was punished in that incident for using the run off to pass. Many cars go wide there due to the nature of the corner so it's a little difficult to putting someone on the grass. A better example would be Alonso and Vettel and their incidents at monza where they both forced the other onto grass and gravel at higher speeds. Schumacher was within his rights to do what he did with Montoya, but it was still dirty. Then again Michael enjoyed his reputation with such things so that's fine. I'm not in uproar over it, just offering my opinion on an old incident.

[Ranger]

schumacher stuck him on the grass -- as he was entitled to do.

button did the same to vettel last year at hockenheim. there was no uproar.

montoya should have lifted because there was no room for a pass.

You forget that in 2004 it was probably the only overtake attempt of the race - hence the big deal about it.