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  1. #1061
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electroliquid View Post
    I don't completely understand all complaining about sound - yes it's important; but formula 1 become boring not due to V6 turbo sound...
    Rally, as all other motorsport, should be safe, then should be affordable for manufacturers to compete, and interesting to spectate or even to be interested in it. If they build monster electric cars with 2000Nm engines and add special sound effects, it not work as great thing...But if rally don't evolve, it will die, now it's not in best shape and this continues long time..
    Sir, have You ever watched elecric race live? I am sorry but without sound IT IS boring as hell. Moreover in rallying sound is part of the safety package. It warns spectators that something is coming. No such issue on closed circuits.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  2. #1062
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonnybobiche View Post
    Probably because the supercharger wasn't actually supercharging anymore, because the battery was partially damaged already.

    https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla...umber-charges/

    Mind you, taking over an hour to recharge isn't anyone's idea of 'fast' to begin with.

    Energy density is the only significant factor as far as range between refueling/recharging is concerned. Electric drivetrains could not compete with the internal combustion engine even if they were 100% efficient. The energy just isn't there, unless you make the whole car into a giant battery. But my understanding is that lithium ion batteries don't actually make for very good seat cushions or airbags.

    I do breathe the exhaust of modern cars all day, because I live in New York. It's as clean as the exhaust coming out of my lungs--just CO2 and water vapor.

    The reason you think it's pointless to talk to me is because you see that I actually know what I'm talking about and we fundamentally disagree. I'm sure you're used to people being less informed and more sympathetic to the green agenda, but you won't get that from me.

    I think 'green energy' and eco-shitboxes are a scam sold by evil people and forced on us by unelected bureaucrats, and I'm pretty tired of people telling me I'm stupid and laughing at me for thinking so.



    No, I don't like electric cars BECAUSE they are shit and they are never going to be "usefull". I think electric car racing is shit, because it is objectively shit, and that's why nobody watches Formula E. And manufacturers don't so much care about my opinion because the governments are forcing their hand and providing big subsidies to make these shitty cars. And still, hybrids are, what, 2% of vehicles on the road? Electrics? Not even 1%. People do not want this.

    1. I actually read the quote article.
    a) The owner who got slower supercharger charging has recharged using different fast-charging stations in total 300 times! If it was once per week it would amount to 6 years....
    b) It says he got the charging power reduced by 25%, sure that is noticable but it would mean using say 40 mins instead of 30 for 90% capacity, not quite slow charging

    2. Only important thing for a car is range? You seem to think so

    3. Sure you live in New York on ground floor 30 feet of a busy road.. If you do and enjoy it... well that's your choice.

    4. The reason it's pointless to talk to you is that you only see one side of the coin "because it's shit". Actually I'm rather neutral on electric cars vs petrol cars, in a sense that I think both have their uses. What I don't like is retarded arguments from each side. Since there are no retarded pro-electric arguments here, you are the one to laugh at.

    5. "I think 'green energy' and eco-shitboxes are a scam sold by evil people and forced on us by unelected bureaucrats, and I'm pretty tired of people telling me I'm stupid and laughing at me for thinking so."
    SAD!

    Also you forgot climate change is a conspiracy made up by China.

    6. "People" want what is cheaper. If petrol cars are cheaper they buy those. If electric/hybrids are cheaper (due to taxes in some countries), then they buy those instead.

  3. #1063
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    1. Petrol cars get slowly banned or get higher taxes
    That's likely impossible for a few decades to come for simple reason. The recharging infrastructure is nowehere close to anything necessary for large scale use of such cars. It's possible for city use especially in city centers where there is traffic regulation in place already but highway long range traffic with electric cars is nothing but sci-fi for at least several more decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    2. Electric cars get cheaper due to mass-production (mostly of batteries), an interesting analogy is that a smartphone would cost some 20k USD if only 100k were sold annually, but with 1,5 billion sold the price is quite different.
    There are all sorts of advantages given to electric cars by governments already in place (huge taxes on fuel, every harder emission standards, tax-incentives for electric cars, Tesla producing cars with huge financial loss covered by subsidies of the tax payers etc.). I believe there is for sure a good chance to electrify large cities (that alone would be very good for living conditions in them) but there is no form of support which could make them ready for mass long-distance traveling in the close future.
    Last edited by Mirek; 28th November 2017 at 22:38.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  4. Likes: sonnybobiche (28th November 2017)
  5. #1064
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Currently the electric cars are a big bubble because the infrastructure is nowhere close to what is needed for large scale use of them. Actually when I read every day bullshit like charging a 1200kWh truck battery in half an hour... of course You can if you have a power supply of 800+ kW... (and Your batteries won't last long if you always charge them like that).
    That is true, currently in most countries there are not enough chargers. In some countries there are however already quite a lot of chargers.

    Will there be enough for all cars to be electric, hard to say, but it is technically possible.

    Since I mentioned smartphones earlier I have another example from that industry. In the begging on 1992 lots of technical people didn't believe this "cellphones" will ever be used on large scale cause you would need a LOT of basestations. They though satphones would be the future ... didn't quite work out that way.

    @above
    As also written here I mostly agree, the biggest difference is probably the timescale. I'd say even highway traffic is possible in as little as 10-20 years if there is enough pressure from 1. and 2. towards it.

    Personally if I could choose, I'd choose petrol cars for longer distance and introduce some self-driving shared electric pods for individual ( <6) driving in cities.
    Last edited by mknight; 28th November 2017 at 22:46.

  6. #1065
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    That is true, currently in most countries there are not enough chargers. In some countries there are however already quite a lot of chargers.
    Quite a lot is very relative term. Except Norway there is no country in the world where electric cars would account for more than a single digit percentage of all cars. in US it's less than 1% and in in most of Europe it's not any better. That means that the infrastrcture is indeed nowhere near anything useful for large scale use of them. Such infrastructure is also hugely difficult to build - not only for financial but also for simple space reasons. If tomorrow all cars on the streets would become electric the capacity of recharging stations in terms of vehicles being recharged in the same time would have to be multiplied by let's say 30x times over petrol stations because of the time needed for recharging (even if we consider unlimited electric grid and super fast chargers everywhere).
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  7. #1066
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    1. I actually read the quote article.
    a) The owner who got slower supercharger charging has recharged using different fast-charging stations in total 300 times! If it was once per week it would amount to 6 years....
    b) It says he got the charging power reduced by 25%, sure that is noticable but it would mean using say 40 mins instead of 30 for 90% capacity, not quite slow charging
    I'd like to meet somebody who drives a significant distance to work and back every day in their Tesla who charges it once a week. For any normal use case as a daily driver it would be twice a week at a minimum. Sure, you can charge it at home overnight and do less damage to the battery, if you pay to install the special charger at home, and pay for the electricity to charge the thing.

    As far as charging speed, it actually takes a little under an hour to get to 90% with a SuperCharger, so now it would take the guy another 15 minutes on top of that. And that's just the degradation so far. An hour and 15 minute pitstop to get another 200 miles of range... not for me.

    I'm not saying range is the only important thing for a car to have, but it's a bit of a dealbreaker when you look at electric as a genuine alternative. If that's a retarded argument to you, you must be a goddamn genius and you're seeing something that is truly beyond my comprehension.

    I'll say nothing more on the issue, or on global warming, since we have lots of Europeans on this board and I know it's a pet cause of theirs. Wouldn't want to offend anybody!

  8. #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Quite a lot is very relative term. Except Norway there is no country in the world where electric cars would account for more than a single digit percentage of all cars. in US it's less than 1% and in in most of Europe it's not any better. That means that the infrastrcture is indeed nowhere near anything useful for large scale use of them. Such infrastructure is also hugely difficult to build - not only for financial but also for simple space reasons. If tomorrow all cars on the streets would become electric the capacity of recharging stations in terms of vehicles being recharged in the same time would have to be multiplied by let's say 30x times over petrol stations because of the time needed for recharging (even if we consider unlimited electric grid and super fast chargers everywhere).
    Obviously it can't happen overnight, but gradual introduction is totally possible as shown in Norway.



    Quote Originally Posted by sonnybobiche View Post
    I'd like to meet somebody who drives a significant distance to work and back every day in their Tesla who charges it once a week. For any normal use case as a daily driver it would be twice a week at a minimum. Sure, you can charge it at home overnight and do less damage to the battery, if you pay to install the special charger at home, and pay for the electricity to charge the thing.

    As far as charging speed, it actually takes a little under an hour to get to 90% with a SuperCharger, so now it would take the guy another 15 minutes on top of that. And that's just the degradation so far. An hour and 15 minute pitstop to get another 200 miles of range... not for me.
    Also in response to Mirek and the infrastructure topic over 50% of charging is and likely will be done at home.. and then some 30% at work. Overnight you can charge just about whole battery with "slower" chargers (depends on the type).

    Street-charging for those without a closed parking spot/garage is also fixable with different solutions for identifying the connected car as well as payment.

    In quite a lot of european countries the electricity is much (50%+) cheaper than buying petrol.

    I don't see why you are bringing the guy that fast-charged 300 times back again, that is indeed highly unusual. Or turning it around, you can off course say that it points to the limits of battery-based vehicles. In the same way a petrol car driving 2 km commute every morning and evening in cold weather wouldn't work quite right after even 50k driven only that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by sonnybobiche View Post
    I'm not saying range is the only important thing for a car to have, but it's a bit of a dealbreaker when you look at electric as a genuine alternative. If that's a retarded argument to you, you must be a goddamn genius and you're seeing something that is truly beyond my comprehension.
    For me I drive over 400km/day nonstop about 3-4 days a year. Typical weekend trips would be 200-300 km one way, then the same back 2 days later. For that use an electric car with 500km range is a real alternative based on range only. Yes it adds some issues for those 3-4 days but rest is ok. (given infrastructure)

    There are off course people do much more long-range driving... but also those who do much less.

  9. #1068
    Senior Member Rallyper's Avatar
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    Also in Sweden everyone (even the power/electrical companies) believe you should be able to charge electrical cars everywhere and at every time 24/7. Of course that´s bulls**t.
    Think of a Nordic january night -15 degrees and no wind. All generated electricity goes for warming up homes and lighten up cities. No power for your car in the morning. And we also decrease our numbers of Nuclear Power Plants. From 2019 only six remains, from 12 in the beginning.
    "Reis vas pät pat kaar vas kut"
    Tommi Mäkinen, back in the years...

  10. Likes: pantealex (29th November 2017),Rally Power (29th November 2017),sonnybobiche (29th November 2017)
  11. #1069
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    And when talking about the "green" aspect of EVs, then we can't forget that producing batteries is not even remotely environment friendly.

    But I just got a far more important question. Is there even enough raw materials to produce enough batteries to even have a chance of replacing all the internal combustion engines (ICE) and then still have enough resources left to keep making new ones for new vehicles and replacements for old ones?
    Never stop dreaming because one day it might happen.

  12. Likes: sonnybobiche (29th November 2017)
  13. #1070
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    There’s even a bigger issue with EVs: they can reduce transportation sector emissions but eventually they won’t help to reduce global emissions, as electricity production will still be mainly based on fossil fuels - despite all the investment in renewable sources. That’s what politics and green lobbyists have been hidden: to put more EVs on the road will mean burning more coal and gas!

    In that sense, I’ve to agree with sonnybobiche: it’s a scam and China will mostly profit from it! China has been investing billions in their manus EVs programs, besides buying tech companies all around the world. They’re already leading the technology and this time they won’t share their market with occidental manus; actually, they’ll be able to take our brands global leadership in years to come.

    On a brighter note, EVs won’t probably be taken by major motorsport series on a near future. It’s too expensive to make them serious alternatives to F1 or WRC cars (WEC state of the art hybrids fiasco is a good example). Only second level series, like FE or WRX, can profit from EVs current public excitement; still, if feasible, it’d be smart to use some mild hybrid system on WRC cars and develop a greener image of the sport.
    Rally addict since 1982

  14. Likes: sonnybobiche (29th November 2017)

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