Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

[mknight]

I don't consider myself an electric car proponent by any means and drive a diesel right now, but I find this discussion extremely funny to the point of falling off my chair.

Sure electric cars have their disadvantages, but they also have advantages. Some of these "facts" against electric cars here are downright hilarious.

Just from a quick scroll:

It just takes a tiiiiny bit of knowledge of physics and chemistry (understanding the difference in energy density between petrol and any practical or theoretical or yet-to-be-conceived-of battery technology) to realize that electric cars are an absurdly stupid idea forced on the public by bureaucrats and politicians who don't know anything except how to manipulate people.

There is no battery technology coming that will compete with a liquid hydrocarbon like petrol, because it is not physically possible in our universe to have a higher energy density than a liquid hydrocarbon, unless you're talking about putting miniature nuclear reactors in everyone's car.

Energy density is totally the only thing that matters when it comes to energy sources.... ohh wait.

Yeah, it would be very hard to create safe and spectacular electric rally cars, while electric motors are very powerful, create gears, who reduce torque means no good on gravel, reduce top speed - always on "rev limiter", and etc.

Gears - what? You can do with just 1 fixed gear without changes, like just about all electric vehicles do.
No good on gravel - Uhh, either electronically or manually (so-called throttle pedal) you just control the amount of torque put to the wheels. Throttle response in electronic system could be just about anything (exponential for example). It's not like current electric cars just spin in one spot on ice continously today you know
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip1WAOLh2rE )

Top/speed rev-limiter - What are you talking about again, WRC cars today have ~ 200 kph top speed, electric cars have that or higher as well.

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Only argument that has some validity out of those shown here is danger of battery fire. Then again petrol in combination with hot engine parts/exhaust/brakes is not exactly fireproof either. Some group B cars surely are a proof of that. In a competition car the battery could be in the middle of the car protected by the rollcage + some hard foam or similar against other impacts.

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I am not sure if everyone will go electric, only in case some big revolutionary invention. Actual electric cars cannot survive without big financial support from government.

This is true right now. In the future there are two very real possibilities that require no revolutionary invention:

1. Petrol cars get slowly banned or get higher taxes
2. Electric cars get cheaper due to mass-production (mostly of batteries), an interesting analogy is that a smartphone would cost some 20k USD if only 100k were sold annually, but with 1,5 billion sold the price is quite different.

[electroliquid]

Gears - what? You can do with just 1 fixed gear without changes, like just about all electric vehicles do. No good on gravel - Uhh, either electronically or manually (so-called throttle pedal) you just control the amount of torque put to the wheels. Throttle response in electronic system could be just about anything (exponential for example). It's not like current electric cars just spin in one spot on ice continously today you know
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip1WAOLh2rE )

I mean fixed gear variations for motorsport like final gears using now; I'm sure electric car can do over 200kmh, but it's not needed for safety reasons;

[sonnybobiche]

1. Petrol cars get slowly banned or get higher taxes
2. Electric cars get cheaper due to mass-production (mostly of batteries), an interesting analogy is that a smartphone would cost some 20k USD if only 100k were sold annual, but with 1,5 billion sold the price is quite different.

Yep, that's all these people ever resort to doing, is taxing and subsidizing to try to alter people's preferences, because this is technology that nobody actually wants or needs. And when that doesn't work, they ban it outright.

I don't see what I said to make you fall out of your chair with laughter, because you didn't make a single cogent response to my point. Energy density matters quite a lot, since people like to be able to, you know, drive their cars for more than a hundred miles or so without having to stop and recharge for an hour. Fast recharge you say? I imagine most people aren't too keen on it when they find out that it destroys their battery and that they'll need to scrap it and buy a new one in two years.

Or maybe you're trying to suggest that the world will run out of petrol soon? They've been saying uninformed or dishonest nonsense like that since the 70s. It's a bunch of Malthusian idiocy. There's enough oil in just the tar sands of Canada to fuel the world for the next 500 years.

Or maybe you're trying to suggest that burning petrol is dirty? Modern cars with catalytic converters are extremely, extremely clean except for a few minutes after a cold start.

Or maybe you're concerned about CO2? Unless you live in a country like France where the eco-fascists didn't destroy the Nuclear industry, most of your electricity is coming from burning coal or oil or natural gas, because as I said, it has a ridiculously high energy density.

I don't see anything funny in the green energy scam being forced down people's throats by a bunch of stupid, corrupt bureaucrats.

They've already ruined plenty. I'd rather not see them ruin my favorite sport.

[mknight]

I don't see what I said to make you fall out of your chair with laughter, because you didn't make a single cogent response to my point. Energy density matters quite a lot, since people like to be able to, you know, drive their cars for more than a hundred miles or so without having to stop and recharge for an hour. Fast recharge you say? I imagine most people aren't too keen on it when they find out that it destroys their battery and that they'll need to scrap it and buy a new one in two years.

Two days ago I drove a 3 year old Tesla who's owner used supercharger just about every week and now still does over 400km no problem. Must have been dreaming.

For a bit less easy argument, "energy density" also matters for whole powertrain, in petrol car you have engine, fuel tank, exhaust, engine cooling etc. In electric you can save a lot of space by omitting a few pieces, but it will add some weight. In any case energy density of fuel is certainly not the one and only factor.
To use your own point, it's not that U238 is the preferred fuel in cars....

The way you put forward your other arguments just shows how pointless it's to talk with you. For your own sake I surely hope you don't breath the EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY clean exhaust of modern cars all day.

[giu canbera]

"I dont like electric cars so thats why they are shit and are never going to be usefull. I think electric car racing is shit, so thats why nobody wants electric car racing. And manufacturers are gonna put my opinions above their intentions of profits"

[sonnybobiche]

Two days ago I drove a 3 year old Tesla who's owner used supercharger just about every week and now still does over 400km no problem. Must have been dreaming.

Probably because the supercharger wasn't actually supercharging anymore, because the battery was partially damaged already.

https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla...umber-charges/

Mind you, taking over an hour to recharge isn't anyone's idea of 'fast' to begin with.

Energy density is the only significant factor as far as range between refueling/recharging is concerned. Electric drivetrains could not compete with the internal combustion engine even if they were 100% efficient. The energy just isn't there, unless you make the whole car into a giant battery. But my understanding is that lithium ion batteries don't actually make for very good seat cushions or airbags.

I do breathe the exhaust of modern cars all day, because I live in New York. It's as clean as the exhaust coming out of my lungs--just CO2 and water vapor.

The reason you think it's pointless to talk to me is because you see that I actually know what I'm talking about and we fundamentally disagree. I'm sure you're used to people being less informed and more sympathetic to the green agenda, but you won't get that from me.

I think 'green energy' and eco-shitboxes are a scam sold by evil people and forced on us by unelected bureaucrats, and I'm pretty tired of people telling me I'm stupid and laughing at me for thinking so.

"I dont like electric cars so thats why they are shit and are never going to be usefull. I think electric car racing is shit, so thats why nobody wants electric car racing. And manufacturers are gonna put my opinions above their intentions of profits"

No, I don't like electric cars BECAUSE they are shit and they are never going to be "usefull". I think electric car racing is shit, because it is objectively shit, and that's why nobody watches Formula E. And manufacturers don't so much care about my opinion because the governments are forcing their hand and providing big subsidies to make these shitty cars. And still, hybrids are, what, 2% of vehicles on the road? Electrics? Not even 1%. People do not want this.

[GravelBen]

2. Electric cars get cheaper due to mass-production (mostly of batteries)

It isn't clear whether batteries will actually get cheaper - for electric cars to get anywhere near their sales targets would need a huge increase in global battery production, supply isn't just dependent on building bigger factories but also on mining the raw materials (I've read that 85% of battery cost is materials). If that supply of materials struggles to keep up with demand (or mining gets more expensive due to environmental standards etc) then battery prices will go up, not down.

[AnttiL]

I think rallying will go electric when it becomes the main interest of manufacturers, or rather when they don't want to promote their combustion engines anymore. Of course it shouldn't be an overnight switch, we should have soon a side class for electric cars to see how they work and develop it further.

I don't have a strong opinion, but having test driven a Tesla a number of times, I'm a believer. They are fast. And you can make it drift.

[mknight]

It isn't clear whether batteries will actually get cheaper - for electric cars to get anywhere near their sales targets would need a huge increase in global battery production, supply isn't just dependent on building bigger factories but also on mining the raw materials (I've read that 85% of battery cost is materials). If that supply of materials struggles to keep up with demand (or mining gets more expensive due to environmental standards etc) then battery prices will go up, not down.

Yes it's possible, that's why I listed it as a possibility.

[Mirek]

I am not sure if everyone will go electric, only in case some big revolutionary invention. Actual electric cars cannot survive without big financial support from government.

Currently the electric cars are a big bubble because the infrastructure is nowhere close to what is needed for large scale use of them. Actually when I read every day bullshit like charging a 1200kWh truck battery in half an hour... of course You can if you have a power supply of 800+ kW... (and Your batteries won't last long if you always charge them like that).