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  1. #1071
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Quite a lot is very relative term. Except Norway there is no country in the world where electric cars would account for more than a single digit percentage of all cars. in US it's less than 1% and in in most of Europe it's not any better. That means that the infrastrcture is indeed nowhere near anything useful for large scale use of them. Such infrastructure is also hugely difficult to build - not only for financial but also for simple space reasons. If tomorrow all cars on the streets would become electric the capacity of recharging stations in terms of vehicles being recharged in the same time would have to be multiplied by let's say 30x times over petrol stations because of the time needed for recharging (even if we consider unlimited electric grid and super fast chargers everywhere).
    Obviously it can't happen overnight, but gradual introduction is totally possible as shown in Norway.



    Quote Originally Posted by sonnybobiche View Post
    I'd like to meet somebody who drives a significant distance to work and back every day in their Tesla who charges it once a week. For any normal use case as a daily driver it would be twice a week at a minimum. Sure, you can charge it at home overnight and do less damage to the battery, if you pay to install the special charger at home, and pay for the electricity to charge the thing.

    As far as charging speed, it actually takes a little under an hour to get to 90% with a SuperCharger, so now it would take the guy another 15 minutes on top of that. And that's just the degradation so far. An hour and 15 minute pitstop to get another 200 miles of range... not for me.
    Also in response to Mirek and the infrastructure topic over 50% of charging is and likely will be done at home.. and then some 30% at work. Overnight you can charge just about whole battery with "slower" chargers (depends on the type).

    Street-charging for those without a closed parking spot/garage is also fixable with different solutions for identifying the connected car as well as payment.

    In quite a lot of european countries the electricity is much (50%+) cheaper than buying petrol.

    I don't see why you are bringing the guy that fast-charged 300 times back again, that is indeed highly unusual. Or turning it around, you can off course say that it points to the limits of battery-based vehicles. In the same way a petrol car driving 2 km commute every morning and evening in cold weather wouldn't work quite right after even 50k driven only that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by sonnybobiche View Post
    I'm not saying range is the only important thing for a car to have, but it's a bit of a dealbreaker when you look at electric as a genuine alternative. If that's a retarded argument to you, you must be a goddamn genius and you're seeing something that is truly beyond my comprehension.
    For me I drive over 400km/day nonstop about 3-4 days a year. Typical weekend trips would be 200-300 km one way, then the same back 2 days later. For that use an electric car with 500km range is a real alternative based on range only. Yes it adds some issues for those 3-4 days but rest is ok. (given infrastructure)

    There are off course people do much more long-range driving... but also those who do much less.

  2. #1072
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    Also in Sweden everyone (even the power/electrical companies) believe you should be able to charge electrical cars everywhere and at every time 24/7. Of course that´s bulls**t.
    Think of a Nordic january night -15 degrees and no wind. All generated electricity goes for warming up homes and lighten up cities. No power for your car in the morning. And we also decrease our numbers of Nuclear Power Plants. From 2019 only six remains, from 12 in the beginning.
    "Reis vas pät pat kaar vas kut"
    Tommi Mäkinen, back in the years...

  3. Likes: pantealex (29th November 2017),Rally Power (29th November 2017),sonnybobiche (29th November 2017)
  4. #1073
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    And when talking about the "green" aspect of EVs, then we can't forget that producing batteries is not even remotely environment friendly.

    But I just got a far more important question. Is there even enough raw materials to produce enough batteries to even have a chance of replacing all the internal combustion engines (ICE) and then still have enough resources left to keep making new ones for new vehicles and replacements for old ones?
    Never stop dreaming because one day it might happen.

  5. Likes: sonnybobiche (29th November 2017)
  6. #1074
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    There’s even a bigger issue with EVs: they can reduce transportation sector emissions but eventually they won’t help to reduce global emissions, as electricity production will still be mainly based on fossil fuels - despite all the investment in renewable sources. That’s what politics and green lobbyists have been hidden: to put more EVs on the road will mean burning more coal and gas!

    In that sense, I’ve to agree with sonnybobiche: it’s a scam and China will mostly profit from it! China has been investing billions in their manus EVs programs, besides buying tech companies all around the world. They’re already leading the technology and this time they won’t share their market with occidental manus; actually, they’ll be able to take our brands global leadership in years to come.

    On a brighter note, EVs won’t probably be taken by major motorsport series on a near future. It’s too expensive to make them serious alternatives to F1 or WRC cars (WEC state of the art hybrids fiasco is a good example). Only second level series, like FE or WRX, can profit from EVs current public excitement; still, if feasible, it’d be smart to use some mild hybrid system on WRC cars and develop a greener image of the sport.
    Rally addict since 1982

  7. Likes: sonnybobiche (29th November 2017)
  8. #1075
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    There’s even a bigger issue with EVs: they can reduce transportation sector emissions but eventually they won’t help to reduce global emissions, as electricity production will still be mainly based on fossil fuels - despite all the investment in renewable sources. That’s what politics and green lobbyists have been hidden: to put more EVs on the road will mean burning more coal and gas!.
    I don't understand this. Doesn't any bit of using renewables for EV energy reduce burning of coal/gas? Even if it's just 10%, it's still 10% less.

    Also, EV's are more power efficient, so driving 100 km on EV takes less energy than 100 km on a petrol car.

  9. Likes: Mirek (29th November 2017)
  10. #1076
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    In terms of emissions the EV are definitely better than any combustion cars. Creating the pollution only in several easy to control sources (power plant) and some renewable ones is way better than delivering it directly in the city streets by devices (cars) with questionable technical state of their catalysts/particle filters/AD blue injectors which moreover most of the time spend standing in traffic jams or on the traffic lights. Moreover large part of such drives is made with cold engines, i.e. absolutely not in ideal conditions (especially diesel cars in the cities).

    The problem is the feasibility of the electrification. It works best with electric trains, trams or trolleybuses but using trolleys is impossible for common traffic where everyone goes where he wants, when he wants and how he wants.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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  12. #1077
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    I don't understand this. Doesn't any bit of using renewables for EV energy reduce burning of coal/gas? Even if it's just 10%, it's still 10% less.
    We’re supposed to believe in it, but if you check the main energy agencies info you’ll notice that in the last decades only in Europe it was possible to reduce fossil fuels electricity production share. In the US, with the fracking boom, natural gas has risen as main source, alongside coal and China, despite the huge investments on hydro, still mainly depends on coal. In the rest of the world situation is the same: the growing electricity demand has been answered through burning fossil fuels, not by the use of cleaner energies. To get lots of cheap and clean electricity, the only viable alternative would be getting back to nuclear energy (still a low emissions source), but this one has been also condemned by public opinion.

    Take a look: http://stateofinnovation.com/coal-an...f-the-dinosaur



    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    In terms of emissions the EV are definitely better than any combustion cars. Creating the pollution only in several easy to control sources (power plant) and some renewable ones is way better than delivering it directly in the city streets by devices (cars) with questionable technical state of their catalysts/particle filters/AD blue injectors which moreover most of the time spend standing in traffic jams or on the traffic lights. Moreover large part of such drives is made with cold engines, i.e. absolutely not in ideal conditions (especially diesel cars in the cities). The problem is the feasibility of the electrification. It works best with electric trains, trams or trolleybuses but using trolleys is impossible for common traffic where everyone goes where he wants, when he wants and how he wants.
    You're missing the point. For sure EVs will be less polluting, but because electricity production is still, and will be for a long time, based in coal and natural gas (despite the propaganda about renewable sources), Co2 emissions saved by taking ICE veichules from the road wouldn't compensate the global Co2 emissions generated by increasing electricity production. It's not even the grid problems that makes one believe EVs aren’t the wonderful solution sold to everyone; it’s the overall concept of not achieving lower global Co2 emissions, as desired.

    Last edited by Rally Power; 29th November 2017 at 15:05.
    Rally addict since 1982

  13. Likes: sonnybobiche (29th November 2017)
  14. #1078
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    You operate with the premise that burning coal or natural gas produces same emissions as burning diesel or petrol in the vehicle engines. That's not true. Especially natural gas is very good source in terms of CO2 emissions (and near perfect source in terms of other unwanted emissions like NOx, SOx or solid particles which are other very problematic substances produced by vehicles). Even black coal is better in terms of CO2 emissions per energy unit than petrol or diesel.

    In fact CNG in terms of emissions is very clean source of energy. The emissions of CO2 are roughly 50% per same energy, emissions of SOx near non existent, emissions of solid particles non existent at all, emissions of NOx are roughly 20-30%.

    Another good thing about CNG is that it can be used by vehicles directly without any major issues.

    Another point which You fail to see is that especially in the city traffic the combustion engines often produce completely useless energy. They basically only warm up their surroundings while the vehicle stands still. This is totally wasted energy with only negative impacts to the environment.
    Last edited by Mirek; 29th November 2017 at 16:02.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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  16. #1079
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    You operate with the premise that burning coal or natural gas produces same emissions as burning diesel or petrol in the vehicle engines. That's not true.
    Jesus, sometimes you remind me my ex wife: always eager to refute my views…

    Anyway, what I’ve mentioned isn’t a personal view at all: it’s the view of many unhappy (and expert) voices in the industry, trying to fight ‘EVs zero emissions’ lie. https://www.theguardian.com/environm...climate-change

    Honestly, I believe those voices are right and that while we won’t manage to fairly decrease coal and natural gas share in global electricity production, we shouldn’t keep boosting EVs in such a bold way. Probably, the smarter thing would be continuing to encourage ICE efficiency (including the use of alternative fuels) and the development of mild hybrids. But then, you'll know better!
    Rally addict since 1982

  17. Likes: sonnybobiche (29th November 2017)
  18. #1080
    Armchair General Mirek's Avatar
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    Sorry but nobody here claimed that EV cars bring zero emissions.

    Do EV bring less total emissions than petrol and diesel cars? Yes, they do.

    Does CNG produce less emissions than diesel or petrol. Yes, it does.

    Is it an improvement? Yes, it is.

    Is it better to implement improvements right now or to wait for the ultimate solution which may come in decades, in centuries or maybe never?


    The issues with large-scale using of EV is technical, not ecological.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  19. Likes: AnttiL (29th November 2017),pantealex (30th November 2017)

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