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Thread: Citroen WRT

  1. #1141
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    Every time I was watching Mads past weekend, I was once again amazed how rough and aggressive his driving style is in comparison to most other drivers. It's the same style he was driving the Fords past couple of seasons. All arms and elbows without much finesse, looking out of the side window in every second corner. Exciting to watch, but you can just feel the last seconds escaping him at the same time. Not sure if that style is the best for C3 or any other modern rally car for that matter, but I think especially the "racing car" Citroen would probably demand a completely different driving approach. I think both Meeke and Breen have a much more refined and suitable driving style for the car. Though funny enough, when you throw the car around like Mads (if you still maintain a good concentration and accuracy in driving otherwise), it is actually often a bit safer style to drive as you get a bit more time to react to surprise moments than if you try to do maximum attack completely racing style. Maybe Östberg's driving style is one reason for his great consistency record. Of the drivers in the recent past Mikko Hirvonen had a bit similar old school style and he also had a great finishing record. But especially towards the end of his career he also started to struggle a lot in terms of pace.

    In contrast, whilst Meeke has a great driving style for C3, his problems are in consistency. With Meeke's style the concentration has to be even greater as the margin for error becomes smaller. And like I said elsewhere, I think his pacenotes are probably the underlying issue for most of his problems. I remember Petter Solberg had this exact same problem. He had a great modern driving style, even more nose-first than Loeb, but to execute it successfully he put more and more things and accuracy into his pacenotes, in the end way too much in my opinion. And then in the end everything is just way too much on the knife edge all the time. Your brain can't keep up consistently anymore for the whole 300-400 stage kilometres.

    If Colin McRae and Richard Burns were able to drive 2018 WRC cars, using the same driving style than they had in their days, I think Burns would do great and McRae would struggle similarly like Mads does. Or if Walter Röhrl was born 40 years later I think he would completely dominate the modern WRC. You just have to be so smooth and clean these days and also find the right balance and ingredients which allow you to execute that style consistently.

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  3. #1142
    Senior Member TWRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mknight View Post
    By whom? Which car did he help develop?

    Last year he used DS3 on at least 3 pre-event tests for "comparison". Doesn't look like someone who is sure about setting up a car.
    He helped in the DS3 WRC development, and was also main development driver for the 208 T16/DS3 R5. Now, I don't want to lay the blame at anyone's door, and maybe this comparison is completely irrelevant, but those R5 cars have suffered from the same problems as the C3 last year: good cars on tarmac, but on gravel, the rear has less than satisfactory grip/behaviour, and had many problems with bad bump stop settings/management (which is a design flaw, but why did they design it like that?). So I'm not saying Meeke is to blame (entirely), as they have used far less drivers for the R5s and the C3 tests than they used to for any of their new cars before (for the DS3, they used Loeb, Sordo, Bouffier, Sarrazin, Meeke, Ogier, etc.), which could clearly affect the development, but the cars he was the main development driver for have suffered from similar problems, which is quite interesting I think.
    Last edited by TWRC; 20th February 2018 at 12:53.

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  5. #1143
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiK7 View Post
    Every time I was watching Mads past weekend, I was once again amazed how rough and aggressive his driving style is in comparison to most other drivers. It's the same style he was driving the Fords past couple of seasons. All arms and elbows without much finesse, looking out of the side window in every second corner. Exciting to watch, but you can just feel the last seconds escaping him at the same time. Not sure if that style is the best for C3 or any other modern rally car for that matter, but I think especially the "racing car" Citroen would probably demand a completely different driving approach. I think both Meeke and Breen have a much more refined and suitable driving style for the car. Though funny enough, when you throw the car around like Mads (if you still maintain a good concentration and accuracy in driving otherwise), it is actually often a bit safer style to drive as you get a bit more time to react to surprise moments than if you try to do maximum attack completely racing style. Maybe Östberg's driving style is one reason for his great consistency record. Of the drivers in the recent past Mikko Hirvonen had a bit similar old school style and he also had a great finishing record. But especially towards the end of his career he also started to struggle a lot in terms of pace.

    In contrast, whilst Meeke has a great driving style for C3, his problems are in consistency. With Meeke's style the concentration has to be even greater as the margin for error becomes smaller. And like I said elsewhere, I think his pacenotes are probably the underlying issue for most of his problems. I remember Petter Solberg had this exact same problem. He had a great modern driving style, even more nose-first than Loeb, but to execute it successfully he put more and more things and accuracy into his pacenotes, in the end way too much in my opinion. And then in the end everything is just way too much on the knife edge all the time. Your brain can't keep up consistently anymore for the whole 300-400 stage kilometres.

    If Colin McRae and Richard Burns were able to drive 2018 WRC cars, using the same driving style than they had in their days, I think Burns would do great and McRae would struggle similarly like Mads does. Or if Walter Röhrl was born 40 years later I think he would completely dominate the modern WRC. You just have to be so smooth and clean these days and also find the right balance and ingredients which allow you to execute that style consistently.
    Interesting point about the pacenotes. I strongly believe that Meeke's Mexico off last year was 100% down to his extremely detailed pacenotes. In the onboard Paul managed to get all the pacenote out in a fraction of a second, but I feel it must have been humanly impossible for Meeke to process all the data he was given right before the corner and slow down.

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  7. #1144
    Senior Member racerx1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve.mandzij View Post
    Interesting point about the pacenotes. I strongly believe that Meeke's Mexico off last year was 100% down to his extremely detailed pacenotes. In the onboard Paul managed to get all the pacenote out in a fraction of a second, but I feel it must have been humanly impossible for Meeke to process all the data he was given right before the corner and slow down.

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    As a co-driver I completely thought it was because of the pacenotes.. Nagles call was way too late. I assumed it was completely Nagles fault as I did not realize Meeke likes descriptive pace notes.

    That being said, you can only say so much when you have multiple calls in a short run. I think it would make sense to dumb things down or speak in codes to prevent from info overload. Similar to when Nagle just called Latvala on "Latvalas Corner" in Sweden. No need to say Latvalas corner. Even better just say JML. That's what I did when co-driving for a quick French driver in the states. He wanted descriptive notes and I got sick and tired of saying things in longform so we decided to shorten things or use acronyms when it made sense.
    Last edited by racerx1979; 20th February 2018 at 23:11.

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  9. #1145
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    Quote Originally Posted by racerx1979 View Post
    As a co-driver I completely thought it was because of the pacenotes.. Nagles call was way too late. I assumed it was completely Nagles fault as I did not realize Meeke likes descriptive pace notes.

    That being said, you can only say so much when you have multiple calls in a short run. I think it would make sense to dumb things down or speak in codes to prevent from info overload. Similar to when Nagle just called Latvala on "Latvalas Corner" in Sweden. No need to say Latvalas corner. Even better just say JML. That's what I did when co-driving for a quick French driver in the states. He wanted descriptive notes and I got sick and tired of saying things in longform so we decided to shorten things or use acronyms when it made sense.
    Nice insight. I just checked the video and in Mexico Nagle called out "be neat this time" right after the corner and moving over to the next one. He timed the note well IMO but rushed it to get that added message through, and Kris probably didn't have enough time to process it.

    As for the Latvala corner, what did that pacenote really mean? Sideways?

    Also, unrelated, how does one go about becoming a co-driver?

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  10. #1146
    Senior Member racerx1979's Avatar
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    I don't know for a fact, but I'm assuming it's where Latvala had an "off". We always named corners where someone had an off or did something amazing like "colins crest" etc.


    The Co-driver gig for me came as luck honestly. I owned a JDM EVO 3 Mitsu and met a performance shop owner during a rally who was service crew for a few of his clients. At that time rallying was not big in the states. I only introduced myself because I wanted to buy some parts for my car. I ended up becoming friends with the shop owner after giving them some business. A few months later a driver (client of theirs) needed someone to co-drive as his normal co-driver was not available. I was asked if interested because I was literally one of a handful of clients they had who was interested in rallying. I laughed and said "yes!, but i don't know a thing about co-driving". A few weeks later I was in a rally car reading a route book and making a ton mistakes, but having the time of my life. This was pre pacenote era in the US. The route book was pre written with only major calls such as cautions, hairpins etc. Nowhere near as good as pacenotes (stagenotes in the US). After that first co-drive I met a ton of drivers and wanted to get involved seriously so I signed up for the local forums and went to all the club rallies trying to get a ride in as many cars as possible. After many stints with different drivers I finally found a solid drive for a few seasons.

    So one way to do it is to go find a rally service shop and tell them you would be interested in co-driving for their drivers if the occasion presents itself. You can also volunteer at club rallies and go talk to some drivers and co-drivers. When I started we had no schools for co-driving in the states. The only way to learn was to find someone with a rally car and enter a rally. Now they have many schools so I think you almost have to have some schooling before doing your first club rally. Sign up for a forum like specialstage.com in the US and offer to help pay a newbie driver some money or help get their car ready to get the experience. Have a lot of fun and stay safe.. beware of any drivers with a bad reputation and stay clear (trust me it's no fun).

    It was so addictive for me that I actually helped pay for some rallies... nothing major, but I paid for hotels for me and the driver or gas etc in my early years. I always tried to help with any preparation since I actually enjoy working on rally cars. In the end I never paid, but I was also with better drivers by that point who had their own funding or small sponsors.
    Last edited by racerx1979; 21st February 2018 at 07:59.

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  12. #1147
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    Quote Originally Posted by TWRC View Post
    He helped in the DS3 WRC development, and was also main development driver for the 208 T16/DS3 R5. Now, I don't want to lay the blame at anyone's door, and maybe this comparison is completely irrelevant, but those R5 cars have suffered from the same problems as the C3 last year: good cars on tarmac, but on gravel, the rear has less than satisfactory grip/behaviour, and had many problems with bad bump stop settings/management (which is a design flaw, but why did they design it like that?). So I'm not saying Meeke is to blame (entirely), as they have used far less drivers for the R5s and the C3 tests than they used to for any of their new cars before (for the DS3, they used Loeb, Sordo, Bouffier, Sarrazin, Meeke, Ogier, etc.), which could clearly affect the development, but the cars he was the main development driver for have suffered from similar problems, which is quite interesting I think.
    Indeed. Btw, Meeke was also involved on the Mini WRC development; another car which was only competitive on tarmac.
    Rally addict since 1982

  13. #1148
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
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    So Citroen made a 'last-minute' decision to give Ostberg a third C3 in Sweden.

    Why cant they do what would effectively be the same for Breen in Mexico ?

    Is it cost or what that makes Mexico different ?

  14. #1149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    So Citroen made a 'last-minute' decision to give Ostberg a third C3 in Sweden.

    Why cant they do what would effectively be the same for Breen in Mexico ?

    Is it cost or what that makes Mexico different ?
    I don't know the exact dates, but entry and freight deadlines probably make it more difficult. Also Ostberg $$$ surely opens doors.
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  15. #1150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    So Citroen made a 'last-minute' decision to give Ostberg a third C3 in Sweden.

    Why cant they do what would effectively be the same for Breen in Mexico ?

    Is it cost or what that makes Mexico different ?
    Mads is paying for his drive. Entries closed for Mexico before Sweden


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