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  1. #11
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    Great effort rjbetty! Though I agree with another poster that the Ferrari wasn't the slug they'd have us believe.

  2. #12
    Senior Member kfzmeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles
    ...the Ferrari wasn't the slug they'd have us believe.

    Alonso sure made it look good. I bet the Lotus was a faster car than the Ferrari.
    Form is Temporary, Class is Permanent

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by keysersoze
    Although I may not agree with all of your rankings and comments, much of what you wrote was accurate. Thanks for your effort and thoughtful analysis, rj.

    FWIW, I'd switch Vettel and Hamilton, move Romain, Massa and Pastor up a bit, move Hulkenberg, Schumacher, and Kovalainen down.
    I agree with ALL of this actually.

    I think this is because I typed most of this in notepad after India and only made a few adjustments before just copying and pasting on here. Michael was disappointing towards the end but I am inclined to let him off. I think his age was maybe finally catching up with him as he just seemed to run out of air. Considering he was now in the same boat as Damon Hill at the end, I think he did well not to fall off altogether and still look pretty strong in Brazil as he did. Looks like it's definitely all out of Michael's system now.

    I agree with Romain and Pastor. These guys have come in for SO much criticism, but they are young and inexperienced. I think both of them have actually been extremely impressive. The crashes can be ironed out. I guess in retrospect we should have seen something about Maldonado: For him to beat Rubens in qualifying in his first season was actually something pretty special - he wasn't given the credit he deserved as he was looked at through "This guy paid millions and took Nico Hulkenberg's drive" glasses.

    I've never been Massa's greatest fan (maybe some have noticed...?) but the end of his season really impressed me. I managed to go without watching the 2008 season at all, and most of 2009 (!) so I don't know first hand about Massa's good times, but I'm guessing it was something like the end of 2012. I really have been impressed and hope he can keep this up next year, and cause Alonso some tantrums. Even despite all this, the fact that he can't seem to handle a bad car well show to me a talent shortfall compared to the very best - I think that seems accurate enough. 7th in the championship seems representative as I believe he is the 7th best driver in F1 (possibly 6th, but no higher than that).

    I was kind to Schumacher and ignored the end of his season. That just didn't seem representative and was unlike the real him - even the 2010-12 him!
    I am fond of Hulkenberg and believe in him. He seems a relatively humble and unlauded guy. Other drivers are more fancied but I am watching this Nico develop with interest. He already seems so much more solid, mature and confident than 2 years ago - and looks to me like he manages it while not being a moron about it. A race winner sometime soon, and I hope for a WDC too!
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Tazio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjbetty
    The driver of that car scored way more than twice as many points as his team-mate.
    You can't make members understand that when all drivers were having issues with their racing strategy, ability to use tires, pit work, and most importantly reliability, Alonso was driving the F2012 for everything it was worth from the first race. And what it was worth on pace was about 1.2 seconds slower than McLaren and 1 second slower than RB for the first 1/4 of the season, bringing that margin down to about .3-4 by race 17 but were still .5 slower in quali pace at the end of the season. Give it up they don’t want to hear it. After race two I remember reading an interview with Fred in which he said that this is the first season he is really healthy and pain free in a very long time, especially his back which was not giving him the problems that it did over the last couple of seasons. Alonso may have had the finest season of his career.

    I question your evaluation of NK although you might be right. The evolution of F1 driving talent may make it that the field is that much faster, but I can’t remember the last time one driver seemed so overmatched.

    As for Massa; as I have thought, and stated many times since he joined Ferrari; he has as much raw speed as anyone in F1. He is very streaky though as his past results have shown, but when he is on his game he is a monster. Just ask Kimi
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  5. #15
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    Regarding the strength of Ferrari. The overlooked aspect is that in order to challenge for titles, in addition to a fast car all ingredients are needed. And from that point of view Ferrari had absolutely top-notch pitstops, consistency, strategies, team-work (Massa moving over at every opportunity) and reliability. Admittedly Ferrari lacked a bit of outright speed (especially in qualifying), but without those above-mentioned qualities, in which Ferrari was the class of the field, Alonso would not have challenged for the title. So Alonso can actually thank his team, which enabled him to challenge for the title. It's not like he single-handedly took a dog of a car and did miracles.

    Other than that - I guess you are the good spirit of the forum now, rjbetty. Lots of analysis in different topics and usually you are pretty open-minded about everyone without a fanboy approach.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjbetty
    The driver of that car scored way more than twice as many points as his team-mate.
    Yet on your same ranking system, Perez who only scored 6 more points than Kamui, which means to suggest that they're far closer, resulted in Perez at 9 and Kamui at 16.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Rollo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioan
    Yes sure, the dreadful car that made it to 2nd in the WCC.
    Any other pearls?


    Alonso apart from two retirements, put the car into a points paying position every time it went out. It also occupied a podium position more often than any other car in the field. That doesn't suggest to me a car that was "dreadful" as Mr Betty does.
    The Old Republic was a stupidly run organisation which deserved to be taken over. All Hail Palpatine!

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo


    Alonso apart from two retirements, put the car into a points paying position every time it went out. It also occupied a podium position more often than any other car in the field. That doesn't suggest to me a car that was "dreadful" as Mr Betty does.
    I think Spain was the only time the Ferrari was definitely quicker than the Red Bull. I'd put Red Bull and McLaren ahead of the Ferrari. And the Lotus, Sauber and Williams on or close to the same level. I think Alonso could have won a race in any of the top 8 cars in 2012, including the Force India (it wouldn't be any more unlikely to me than winning in the 2008 Renault).

    Ok maybe "dreadful" was going too far, but what you guys are saying comes across to me as similar to saying Ferrari were close to McLaren in 1998 because Schumacher almost took the title in it, and it scored 6 wins and 20 podiums in the hands of Schumacher and Irvine. It could be argued that since McLaren also scored 20 podiums that the cars were similar in performance, but I don't agree with that at all.

    (I was thinking today that the great thing about 2012 was that the driver seemed to make more of a difference)
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  9. #19
    Senior Member kfzmeister's Avatar
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    The common consensus is that at RB it was mostly the car and at Ferrari it was mostly Alonso. Anything else and you're wearing goggles.
    Form is Temporary, Class is Permanent

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo
    Yet on your same ranking system, Perez who only scored 6 more points than Kamui, which means to suggest that they're far closer, resulted in Perez at 9 and Kamui at 16.
    Yup, I'm probably a bit harsh on Kobayashi actually. I can see he has been very quick - you have to be to be on the front row at Spa. But overall it just looks like he got fazed by Perez and has looked a bit Fisichella-like at times (i.e. underperforming) which in this kind of saturated market = good but not good enough He's good, but it just seems that most drivers in F1 are at a similar level or higher.

    Perez was a bit silly towards the end - he had been doing so well and had about x2 the points of Kobayashi until having a mild meltdown (not all his fault). But I think he's shown a lot more potential which is why he got promoted.

    Meant to say that none of the rankings above are meant to be strict and set in stone. I do think now that Maldonado ans Massa in particular could come up a bit with Hulk and Schu going down.
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