Is it possible faster than Formula1?

[dpal]

Hello from Australia.
Question
Is it possilbe for a smaller formula car formula 3, formula 2 or gp2 to be faster in certain types of corners than f1? Cheers

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Perhaps around a slow corner where the car is going too slow to produce any downforce then I suppose it might me possible. Such as the Monaco hairpin.

[Mark]

Short answer is no. Formula 1 cars have way more grip than any of the above.

Now; there are cars which are faster in a straight line than Formula 1 cars ; as demonstrated on Top Gear yesterday, but still produce significantly slower lap times.

[Rollo]

I think that there might be a case to be made for certain corners as Mr Brown has suggested.

I wonder if at a corner like Turn 15 at Albert Park where F1 cars slow down to 85km/h whether or not a Formula Ford by virtue of it having a physically smaller footprint might be able to take a slightly wider line through the corner and go through at 90km/h?
Obviously an F1 car is going to accelerate far far far harder but if the attitude in a lesser formula is to conserve speed through a slow corner, would that warrant a different attitude to the way that a particular corner is taken?
I'd hazard a very nebulous guess that maybe ½% of all corners might be faster in the lesser formulae.

[jens]

For such possibility to arise, it means an F3, GP2, etc car must have some kind of an advantage over an F1 car. But I am personally not aware of any such factor that could make the lower formula superior in some area - tyres, engine, chassis, aerodynamics? Or even more specific - suspension, gearbox, etc?

Monaco hairpin? Still doubtful. Although one advantage a lower formula car can have in that particular corner, is that they are shorter in length. But I assume it would still be outweighed by mechanical grip an F1 car can generate.

[AndyL]

For such possibility to arise, it means an F3, GP2, etc car must have some kind of an advantage over an F1 car. But I am personally not aware of any such factor that could make the lower formula superior in some area - tyres, engine, chassis, aerodynamics? Or even more specific - suspension, gearbox, etc?

According to my ouija board, Colin Chapman is telling me that lighter weight would be a useful advantage (not in the case of a GP2 car). As well as length, I think narrower width could be an advantage, as Rollo suggested allowing a wider line in tight corners. But a narrower car would lose out by unloading the inside tyres more, unless the height of the centre of gravity were lowered too.

There was a rumour at one time that a top-spec kart could lap Monaco faster than an F1 car.

I don't think there's any dispute that a kart would be faster than an F1 car round a kart track. So if a kart is a car then I guess the answer to the original question must be yes.


Edit - just to add some more info... according to formula1.com. the cornering force for an F1 car in the Monaco hairpin is 2.42g. According to Wikipedia, a superkart can achieve around 3g, but I wouldn't like to guess how close it could get to that in that particular corner.

[jens]

I don't think there's any dispute that a kart would be faster than an F1 car round a kart track.

Well, that is true. Kart tracks are so tight and twisty that a Formula One car can barely fit in there, let alone run at its full capabilities.

[race_director]

just making a guess. there would be many corner in the world where even a 500cc bike would be faster than a f1 car if they use a wider line ?. say spa 1st hairpin?

[AndyL]

just making a guess. there would be many corner in the world where even a 500cc bike would be faster than a f1 car if they use a wider line ?. say spa 1st hairpin?

Maybe, but it would have to be a very tight corner for the lines to be different enough. Due to the geometry of the situation bikes don't generate the same cornering forces - maybe up to 1.5 or 1.6 g, limited by lean angle.
Race bikes look pretty unwieldy in very slow corners, for example the mickey-mouse final chicane across the pit lane entry that they used to use at Silverstone. I'd guess a more likely place for a bike to have an advantage would be a chicane that's just open enough to allow a bike to more or less straight-line it, while a car has to turn. Somewhere like the old Dingle Dell at Brands Hatch perhaps?

[fan-veteran]

the cornering force for an F1 car in the Monaco hairpin is 2.42g.
According to Wikipedia, a superkart can achieve around 3g,

If tyres with pure mechanical grip giving 3g are possible , which i very highly doubt in a racing environment, then they could be fitted on F1 car too, right.
Well, the exact quotation from Wikipedia about Superkart is:
"A Superkart is capable of braking from 100 mph (160 km/h) to standstill in around 2 seconds, and taking corners at nearly 3 g (30 m/s²)"
Obviously a downforce is included.