FIA Appendix J - a brief history of time.

[OldF]

One question I forgot was about the inlet and exhaust ports in group 2. I have a book from 1966 where the group 2 regulations were explained. There was written that the ports can be modified and enlarged and because the valves were free it would be possible to install larger valves.

I couldn’t find in the 1965 appendix any direct reference to this if it’s not a part of art 263 (26) “finishing off”.

Interpreting these regulations is an art of it selves.

I also remember reading from a Finnish motor sport magazine “ Vauhdin Maailma” an article about turning a Nissan Micra to a A group car. There the owner told that he didn’t acquire the inlet manifold because it was so expensive. I’ve always thought that inlet manifolds have to original in group A. Maybe a modified original one?

[FAL]

Both the pre 66 and post 65 Gp2 allowed removal of material from the head - but not adding material to it (something which has been a major controversy in the British Historic Rally Championmship very recently). Larger valves could even be homologated in Gp1 (typically as a so-called "emissions kit, along with twin carbs and a different manifold, making a mockery of the intent and spirit of the regulations).
GpA has been through all manner of changes. Originally the first regs for 1.1.82. said standard size valves and a maximum 3mm increase in valve lift (and standard induction, with no incease in air, only fuel flow). The main change in the "Maxi Kit Car" GpA era (silly title) was, apart from bodywork, to allow a different induction sysytem (usually separate throttle bodies in place of single plenum injection).

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Thanks for your post.

[OldF]

Larger valves could even be homologated in Gp1 (typically as a so-called "emissions kit, along with twin carbs and a different manifold, making a mockery of the intent and spirit of the regulations).

It just bumped into my mind one day how the homologations were pre 1982 (Before group A, B and N). Reading the thread again there must have been some kind of racing homologations.

Were the homologations similar to the variant options (VO), erratum (ER) etc. or was there only a basic homologation of the car and the tuner / car builder build the car by the regulations?

Could the tuners / car builders make the parts allowed to be replaced or modified by them selves or did they have to acquire the parts from the manufacturer?

Could this “emission kit” be compared to a variant option (VO) or was this some specific homologations for cars pre 1982?

[FAL]

I don't quite follow the question (I appreciate that writing in a second or third language is never easy).
FIA homologations were for all International motorsport and were not separate ones for racing and rallying. What confuses the issue is that national sporting authorities sometimes added some conditions for national championships. An example: the British Saloon Car Racing Championship is usually described as going to GP1 in the 70s but in reality was a sort of "Gp1 and a half", allowing some things FIA Gp1 did not.
Specific items were homologated by amendments to the FIA Homologation papers but it needs to be remembered that in all Groups there were some "freedoms" covered by the narrative of Appendix J, not what was in the homologation papers.
Where a modification was covered by these "freedoms", any parts meeting the criteria could be fitted. In the case of homologated modifications, there would be a photo (a very poor photo that was open to interpretation!) in the papers. In some cases such parts were only available from the vehicle manufacturer. In other cases all manner of companies made and supplied the parts (including the company that made them for the vehicle manufacturer in the first place!).
To get twin carburetters homologated in Gp1 for a car that was only fitted with a single carb, the best approach togetting them approved was to describe them as an "emissioins kit" or "export market specification, country X..." rather that "performance enhancing twin carbs".
Often, things seemed to get approval because the FIA had recently approved something similarly performance-enhancing for a competing manufacturer's vehicle in the same category and were having a guilty conscience about having done so! That was the best time for the other manufacturer to then submit something "tongue in cheek" and hope it got through...

[OldF]

OK, I’ve shouldn’t haven’t use the words “racing homologations”. What I meant was homologations in rallying.

I’ll try to explain it again whit my skills of English.

Nowadays there is a basic group-A homologation for N-group cars, WRC cars, and R-group cars and in the past group-A cars. The cars called group A cars in past was made rallying cars by variant options (VO) homologations allowed by the homologation regulations for a group A car.

Similar homologations regulations extensions exist for N group, WRC and R-group cars. As an example a group N homologation explains the entire basic measurements etc. of the cars that is not allowed in group N but was free in group A or able to homologate by a VO in group A. As an example the pistons is free in group-A but in the group-N they have to be original.

My question was, were there a homologation of a car similar to the basic group a homologation pre 1982? Reading the technical regulations pre 1982, I understood that there where more freedom modifying a car without any homologation because of the regulations of Appendix J but what changes needed a separate homologation?

What confuses the issue is that national sporting authorities sometimes added some conditions for national championships. An example: the British Saloon Car Racing Championship is usually described as going to GP1 in the 70s but in reality was a sort of "Gp1 and a half", allowing some things FIA Gp1 did not.

We also have these national exceptions as an examples called “FIN R 2WD technical regulations” and “FIN R 4WD technical regulations”.

[FAL]

The homologation papers described all the parameters of the basic standard road car. Then there were the "alternatives" that were freely allowed in Gp1 (eg. one alternative final drive ratio and one alternative set of gearbox ratios). Then there were specific items added by amendments (eg. the dreaded "emissions kit" alternative carburetters, additional alternative final drive ratios - one new one a year in the latter case? - alternative minor bodywork changes etc.). All cars homologated in Gp1 (5000 off from 1.1.66.) were automatically also homologated in Gp2 (1000 off from 1.1.66.). It was more normal to get Gp2 homologation and later Gp1 homologation.
In the case of cars like the "Escort RS" in Gp4 that were never a road car, the basic "standard" car described in the papers was the spec of a former works Gp2 car prior to the changes that limited Gp2 modifications.

[OldF]

Thanks FAL,

Now I know more how the homologations worked pre 1982.

[janvanvurpa]

GpA has been through all manner of changes. Originally the first regs for 1.1.82. said standard size valves and a maximum 3mm increase in valve lift (and standard induction, with no incease in air, only fuel flow). The main change in the "Maxi Kit Car" GpA era (silly title) was, apart from bodywork, to allow a different induction sysytem (usually separate throttle bodies in place of single plenum injection).

Having built a Group A Saab in 1986 for Olympus rally, I really burned up the phone lines with people from Saab, to be absolutely ceratin I was legal----I did not trust the organiser who was very off hand and also full of himself. So with much thanks to Kaj Bäckstrom (I hope I reme4mber that correctly!) I got the Homologation papers all the way back to the first V4 papers in mid 67, thru the Group A papers...and they are in that desk drawer just over there <--------. Bäckström is the man who wrote Saabs papers...and he put me in touch with Saab competition departments engine builder from 1959 thru 1980 when they closed down the Factory rally department named Bengt-Erik Ström, and i was already friends with ex Swedish Champion in rally Ola Strömberg--the ''Big Class already being Group A, and he had won in a Saab 99 turbo 8v.

All these guys said ''Oh man you're lucky you're building now!'' Well considering the Group A 96 was only homologated with the little 1.5 liter, and the rules were clear ''Ports tolerance: according to drawing provided by MFG of car in this case +1.8mm to 0,8mm and I\m comparing this to my normal 1815cc motor with big ports, big carbs, BIG valves....well all those guys say "Ah! from 1 Jan 1986 cam lift is free" And I never saw any reference to "max 3mm more than original" and I read both the English and French.
I did ask the guys how the max and min tolerances changed from the old Gp1 and Gp2 which were all "+0,8 and -0,8mm" including the horrible siamesed exhaust port at 32mm and suddenly the "tolerance is + 1,8? and the papers read on the horrible exhaust port suddenly "Not applicable, integral exhaust manifold" and the outlet was suddenly 44.5mm..

"Oh well nobody looks very carefully"..Okie dokie.....


One thing that should be pointed out is the wording for Gp1 and Gp2 read "four place cars" and Gp4 read "two place cars" abd GroupN and A continued that with interior dimensions specified....