Should we nationalise the railways?

[BDunnell]

Dire in what ways Bolton Midnight?

In the 1980's, the Network SouthEast division was pretty much running at a profit, as was Inter-City.

Following the successful application of market principles to their running.

[MrMetro]

I don't know, remember back "in the day" Britain had a massively extensive railway network, you could get to pretty much anywhere in the country by train and most places had a station. It was simply silly to have expensive railways and very expensive trains running to some places which were no more than villages, when there was a much cheaper solution of road travel using buses & private cars.

However I do agree that the cuts went too far and some places of a decent size lost service completely when it should have been maintained or even expanded.

It's often said the problem with the way things are now is that the TOCs have to pay exorbitant prices to rent their trains, mostly from the banks (it always comes back to the banks doesn't it?!) whereas if they were one organsiation they could purchase and run their own trains.

However I think the main problem is the way the government does it's accounting, for public utilities it owns it can't do investment as this would count as 'public spending', so it instead relies on the likes of banks to stump up the cash and then it repays them at crazy rates from now until forever more.

Should the railways be nationalised? Yes; there's no doubt that given there is zero competition on the network it would be best off run as a single entity, however it needs to be done properly, at arms length from the government and with guaranteed funding levels. The main issue with BR was that it was far too easy for successive governments to cut rail funding in order to satisfy budgets elsewhere.

State run companies in Europe such as Dutch Railways(NS), Deutsche Bahn(DB) and SNCF are private companies, with the majority of shares owned by the state. They operate much more flexibly, hence why you see some state run companies in the UK. My local operator, Northern Rail is half owned by Abellio, who are the international division of NS.

[MrMetro]

Following the successful application of market principles to their running.

True.

[Bolton Midnight]

Trains were late, dirty, over staffed by lazy bolshy union members, food was awful, stations dirty and cold. It was an utter joke. Why did so many UK comedians of the time rip the piss out of BR if it was oh so wonderful, it wasn't. Just rose tinted spectacles and nostalgia muddling people's views. It was run for the staff's benefit not the passengers.

Why should I the taxpayer pay for something I don't use? If a line is not economically viable why should it be kept open?

The worrying thing these days is not the trains, timetable, or fares it is safety (all in the name of profit plus pikey scum robbing cables of course).

[BDunnell]

Trains were late, dirty, over staffed by lazy bolshy union members, food was awful, stations dirty and cold. It was an utter joke. Why did so many UK comedians of the time rip the piss out of BR if it was oh so wonderful, it wasn't. Just rose tinted spectacles and nostalgia muddling people's views. It was run for the staff's benefit not the passengers.

Who knows more — you or rail industry experts and historians who have written on the subject?

I would add that many of the same comedians by whose views you apparently set such great store were also doing jokes at the time about Margaret Thatcher, something for which you would presumably castigate them.

Now please leave this discussion to the grown-ups who were previously debating an interesting issue in a civilised manner despite some opposing points of view.

[Bolton Midnight]

Who knows more — you or rail industry experts and historians who have written on the subject?

I would add that many of the same comedians by whose views you apparently set such great store were also doing jokes at the time about Margaret Thatcher, something for which you would presumably castigate them.

Now please leave this discussion to the grown-ups who were previously debating an interesting issue in a civilised manner despite some opposing points of view.

Who'd more likely to have rose tinted specs me or some train spotting anoraks?

Talking of which, this chap looks like a deffo train spotter doesn't he, what a freak.

Ben Dunnell takes up editor position on Aircraft Illustrated magazine | Smart Moves | Journalism.co.uk

The Thatch wasn't everyone's cup of tea no, the lazy, the feckless etc probably didn't like her much. Best PM the UK has ever had mind.

Who made you the boss, freak.

[MrMetro]

Who'd more likely to have rose tinted specs me or some train spotting anoraks?

Talking of which, this chap looks like a deffo train spotter doesn't he, what a freak.

Ben Dunnell takes up editor position on Aircraft Illustrated magazine | Smart Moves | Journalism.co.uk

The Thatch wasn't everyone's cup of tea no, the lazy, the feckless etc probably didn't like her much. Best PM the UK has ever had mind.

Who made you the boss, freak.

When stumped, insert insult.

[BDunnell]

Who'd more likely to have rose tinted specs me or some train spotting anoraks?

Who would be likely to actually know something about the subject in hand? You or an expert?

[Dave B]

The thing is that Governments don't have anywhere near the sort of vision they once did.

That, in a nutshell, is the problem. Governments of all colours are fixated on winning the next election, not planning for decades down the line when they'll all be retired (or on fat directorships of privatised companies).

An eye-watering sum invested in transport infrastructure has the potential to pay for itself many times over in the course of 50 years, but nobody will invest on that basis.

[BDunnell]

That, in a nutshell, is the problem. Governments of all colours are fixated on winning the next election, not planning for decades down the line when they'll all be retired (or on fat directorships of privatised companies).

An eye-watering sum invested in transport infrastructure has the potential to pay for itself many times over in the course of 50 years, but nobody will invest on that basis.

Quite, but it's far from a new problem. Reading any history of the British railways shows that successive governments going back decades have failed to recognise the value of a properly organised, well-run, suitably-resourced rail network. There have been long periods of under-investment punctuated by sudden splurges of resourcing directed at the wrong areas.