Rally2 (ex-R5) News

[noel157]

Mirek, have Skoda plans for 2013 in the Czech national championship or taking a year off until R5 time in 2014?

[Mirek]

I have no idea but I think it's still not decided in the moment.

[OldF]

What would be a reasonable price for a R5 car? I wish the price would begin with a 1.

If the rebuild interval for the engine will be 3000 km vs. 1500 km for a Fiesta S2000 with same rebuild costs, the running cost for the engine would be the half for a S2000.

Ford Fiesta S2000 (Ford Fiesta S2000 Sales Document)

Rebuild interval 1500 km
Price £12 940 ~ 16 118 € => 10,75 € / km (Parts £8,740 ~ 10 886 €, Labour £4,200 ~ 5 231 €)

Rallies: 10 x 200 km => Running cost / year = 21 500 € / year

R5 (S2000 rebuilding cost)

Rebuild interval 3000 km
Price £12 940 ~ 16 118 € => 5,37 € / km (Parts £8,740 ~ 10 886 €, Labour £4,200 ~ 5 231,45)

Rallies: 10 x 200 km => Running cost / year = 10 740 € / year

Btw, the running cost for the Fiesta RRC engine is almost twice compared to the S2000.

Rebuild interval 1600 km
Price £29 976,98 ~ 37 141 € => 23,23 € / km

Rallies: 10 x 200 km => Running cost / year = 46 460 € / year


There is of course also other running cost but about them I don’t know anything.

[Mirek]

As I already mentioned I bet the price of R5 car will be cca same like with S2000 car - that is around 250 thousand Euro for complete car. About the engine rebuild cycles I heard it may well be 5000 km.

[stefanvv]

They say (Peugeot probably) 3K - 5K km I think

[OldF]

Yes, they are aiming for durability between 3000 and 5000 km but I took a safe approach and used 3000 km.

Peugeot Sport - RALLYE - news-1022-la-208-type-r5-se-devoile-au-mondial-de-paris-29-09-14-10-

We have serious foundations with this engine as it is the same as that of the RCZ Racing Cup which currently develops 260 horsepower in its endurance version. We are also aiming for a very high level of durability and reliability: with between 3000 and 5000 kilometres (according to the components and conditions), which will also reduce the operating costs."

[OldF]

As I already mentioned I bet the price of R5 car will be cca same like with S2000 car - that is around 250 thousand Euro for complete car. About the engine rebuild cycles I heard it may well be 5000 km.

That’s I’m afraid about that it will be lot more expensive than the 180 000 € price cap suggested by FIA. But, if the manufacturers try to keep the cost level of a R3 / R3T car, the R5 could be more affordable.

Most of the parts of a S2000 car is lot more expensive compared to an equivalent part for a R3 or R3T. Couple of examples:

Front wishbones

Peugeot S2000 5259 € Average 2,83 times more expensive
Citroen R3T 1326 €
Renault Clio R3 1985 €
Skoda Fabia R2 2265 €

Front drive shafts

Peugeot S2000 3738 € Average 3,85 times more expensive
Citroen R3T 881 €
Renault Clio R3 863 €
Skoda Fabia R2 1167 €

I don’t what could justify this huge price difference because looking at the pics below, imo the front wishbones all having similar designs. Those one who knows, please explain.

One thing that could affect the difference is that a manufacturer can’t predict how many S2000 cars (or any else class/group) would be sold and then spreading the development & manufacturing costs of parts of some kind of forecast.

Peugeot S2000




Renault Clio R3





Skoda Fabia R2

[tommeke_B]

@ OldF: 180 000 euros is the kit price, that all manufacturers will have. But if you want a ready-to-drive car from the factory, where everything is built, it should cost around 250 000 euros.
Also comparing wishbones, driveshafts etc isn't representative. To begin with, a S2000 is built to have more stress on those parts, they're stronger than parts in R3 and R2 (proof could be the number of retirements you have with Fiesta R2's in the academy).

[OldF]

OK, I don’t know if the suggested price cap of 180 000 € is for a complete car or just the kit. You probably know more. It’s a complete mess from FIA not to define if the suggested price cap is for a kit or a complete car.

The difference of a complete car vs. the kit (250 000 vs. 180 000 = 70 000) would still be huge. Looking at the video (Building the new rally car... | Peugeot 207 S2000 Evo 2012 | Synthos Cersanit Rally Team - YouTube & Rajd Mille Miglia - nowa rajdówka ju? gotowa!) of assembling the Peugeot S2000 for Solowow, it took 5 days for 5 mechanics to assemble the car. Additionally there was two days of painting. Lets say that if 5 guys were working 10 hours a day for seven days, it would mean total of 350 hours. Divided 70 000 € with 350 hours give a price of 200 € / hour.

Of course there are also some hidden costs like homologation papers, some training of mechanics etc.

Yes, you’re right about the stress but considering the drive shafts I have to disagree. A S2000 has about 250 Nm of torque from the engine and that torque is divided on four wheels. A Citroen DS3 R3T has a torque of 350 Nm with 98-octane fuel divided on only two wheels.

I don’t think a comparison with the Fiesta R2 is essential because the Fiesta R2 is a very basic R2 car. It has homologated drive shafts but not any wishbones. It could be compared to the Citroen C2 R2 base or Renault Twingo R2 base (kit prices for Citroen and Ford is/was about 23 000 € and the Twingo was about 28 000€). That’s why the Fiesta R2 has been the Academy car last year and will be the next year in JWRC.

PS Thanks for the hint for videos of the French gravel championship rallies. Lot of videos there but I’m still searching to find videos of the gravel championship.7

[dimviii]

.
Yes, you’re right about the stress but considering the drive shafts I have to disagree. A S2000 has about 250 Nm of torque from the engine and that torque is divided on four wheels. A Citroen DS3 R3T has a torque of 350 Nm with 98-octane fuel divided on only two wheels.

a 2wd car with 350nm will stress less the shafts than a 4wd car with 250nm.Most of shaft stress is at low speed,and with steering away from center line,most stress when one wheel is on air(something usual at u turns with different height between left-right wheel at any axle)
At these circumstances a 2wd is easy to broke the grip and spin,a 4wd is not so easy to broke the grip,and there comes the big stress.
Of course we have to mention that all shafts are not the same.Other are stronger and other are weaker.
For example at n4 evos shafts can cope(with sensible driver..) with 600nm torque(change once a year),and we are talking about oem ones.