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  1. #4641
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
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    #M-SPORTER

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  3. #4642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC View Post
    Hmm I'm not sure really. I think you'd get cheaper options but if you want to actually be competitive you'd still need to be in a Fiesta/Fabia/Polo etc.

    Also there's a lot more machinery in the UK that is being used outside the BRC. So I have to assume the car category isn't the only issue.
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  5. #4643
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Exactly. While I would like to see a possibility to develope R5 cars without manufacturer involvement I do agree that there is very very little chance such car could ever be successful. The history repeatedly proves that there is direct corelation between the success rate and the effort spent, i.e. the manufacturers have huge advantage over any privateer. It has to be taken into account that R5 cars are no F1 and nobody can expect a serious interest of big private players. In the end the performance is what wins and cheap but slow cars have never ever managed to succeed.

    I personaly dare to say that both with R5 and previous S2000 FIA finally found a working receipt on how to make regional/national championships great again.
    Last edited by Mirek; 31st August 2017 at 21:20.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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  7. #4644
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    I see where the article is coming from, particularly when you consider the Holzer situation, which it doesn't talk about, but I don't really like the tone. I appreciate it's the British/BRC centric Motorsport News, but I don't think you can or should judge the R5 category by the failures of the British Rally Championship or rallying in general in the UK. I certainly don't think we in the UK should dictate to the FIA what it should do with the R5s. Through mismanagement, bad fortune and changing circumstaces, the UK is not the rallying powerhouse it once was, we're in no position to call the shots...

  8. #4645
    Senior Member Fast Eddie WRC's Avatar
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    I was thinking about the Holzer Corsa too.. what a shame it'll be if all that work goes to waste due to Opel not homologating it.

  9. #4646
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    The MN article makes total sense. R5 (and R2) are well conceived categories, but having them developed exclusively by manus tuners make it too expensive. Letting private tuners get a piece of the pie would allow customers to have a larger and cheaper choice (even if less competitive) and eventually would force current builders to bring their prices down. If RGT and future R4 models can be homologated without the manus involvement, why can’t the same be allowed in R5?
    Rally addict since 1982

  10. #4647
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Has that ever worked? No, it hasn't.

    I mean there were tons of cheap Puntos, Protons, Polos, MGs S2000 around but nobody was buying them. It's sport and sport is about being competitive. Buying slow car is the same like to throw the money out of the window. Look, around 300 customers bought Fabias R5/S2000 despite them being the most expensive cars around. How many private Protons do You remember? One or two? In 2012 several drivers were offered a drive on Barum with Punto for the price of common gr.N car but nobody was interested because the car was already too slow against Fabias, Peugeots or Fiestas and it didn't help that those competitive cars cost 3-4x more.

    If You can spend 250 thousand for competitive car or 200 thousand for virtually useless car which one You choose?

    Besides that this model didn't work even when there was virtually no competition from true manufacturers - with R-GTs.
    Last edited by Mirek; 1st September 2017 at 15:47.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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  12. #4648
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirek View Post
    Has that ever worked? No, it hasn't.
    I mean there were tons of cheap Puntos, Protons, Polos, MGs S2000 around but nobody was buying them. It's sport and sport is about being competitive. Buying slow car is the same like to throw the money out of the window. Look, around 300 customers bought Fabias R5/S2000 despite them being the most expensive cars around. How many private Protons do You remember? One or two? In 2012 several drivers were offered a drive on Barum with Punto for the price of common gr.N car but nobody was interested because the car was already too slow against Fabias, Peugeots or Fiestas and it didn't help that those competitive cars cost 3-4x more.
    If You can spend 250 thousand for competitive car or 200 thousand for virtually useless car which one You choose?
    It worked fine in Gr. A days. There was room for low budget A8 cars like there’s room for low budget R5’s now. Take the Mirage R5 case: the announced price is €180K; that's less 80K than an i20 or a Fabia, which is a lot of money for privateers. The car is far from being ridiculous on gravel (there's no tarmac version simply because homologation didn't happened), so it's not hard to believe that it could be a reasonable alternative for the many Evo’s owners around the world.

    R Group was FIA’s definitive switch towards manus tuners. Even if today's rally cars are fantastic machines, their huge cost and the limited number of models available can hardly be seen as the only option to develop the sport. Bringing private tuners back, in a free market spirit (not as in the new R4) with a homologation friendly policy (the opposite of what happened in RGT), can only be positive.

    Btw, the Puntos were developed by Fiat and their 0km price was on the same level of a 207. The Proton's and MG were limited scale projects and just a few S2000 Polos were brought to Europe by a Belgium team, but they were built by VW South Africa.
    Rally addict since 1982

  13. #4649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    It worked fine in Gr. A days. There was room for low budget A8 cars like there’s room for low budget R5’s now. Take the Mirage R5 case: the announced price is €180K; that's less 80K than an i20 or a Fabia, which is a lot of money for privateers. The car is far from being ridiculous on gravel (there's no tarmac version simply because homologation didn't happened), so it's not hard to believe that it could be a reasonable alternative for the many Evo’s owners around the world.

    R Group was FIA’s definitive switch towards manus tuners. Even if today's rally cars are fantastic machines, their huge cost and the limited number of models available can hardly be seen as the only option to develop the sport. Bringing private tuners back, in a free market spirit (not as in the new R4) with a homologation friendly policy (the opposite of what happened in RGT), can only be positive.

    Btw, the Puntos were developed by Fiat and their 0km price was on the same level of a 207. The Proton's and MG were limited scale projects and just a few S2000 Polos were brought to Europe by a Belgium team, but they were built by VW South Africa.
    The Mirage R5 is listed as 180k, because that's the maximum price for an R5 allowed under the regulations.

    Same as the other cars....

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  15. #4650
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    It worked fine in Gr. A days. There was room for low budget A8 cars like there’s room for low budget R5’s now. Take the Mirage R5 case: the announced price is €180K; that's less 80K than an i20 or a Fabia, which is a lot of money for privateers. The car is far from being ridiculous on gravel (there's no tarmac version simply because homologation didn't happened), so it's not hard to believe that it could be a reasonable alternative for the many Evo’s owners around the world.

    R Group was FIA’s definitive switch towards manus tuners. Even if today's rally cars are fantastic machines, their huge cost and the limited number of models available can hardly be seen as the only option to develop the sport. Bringing private tuners back, in a free market spirit (not as in the new R4) with a homologation friendly policy (the opposite of what happened in RGT), can only be positive.

    Btw, the Puntos were developed by Fiat and their 0km price was on the same level of a 207. The Proton's and MG were limited scale projects and just a few S2000 Polos were brought to Europe by a Belgium team, but they were built by VW South Africa.
    The Mirage is hardly any success. The car isn't competitive against the top dogs, there is only few of them around and it will stay like that. Just like it was with all private S2000 cars. Proton Satria S2000 was much more competitive car and it still never broke to the market despite being cheaper and only slightly slower than the top cars.

    In my example with Puntos I didn't speak about new cars. In 2011-2012 a used Punto cost 1/3 of what a new Fabia or Fiesta yet nobody was buying or even using them. Everybody sane was buying the expensive but competitive cars. That used Punto wasn't worse than contemporary private cars which were moreover 2x more expensive because they were new. Logically if there was a market for cheap but somewhat slower cars the stages would be filled with used Puntos but they were not. Look at it also from sponsor's point of view. Why shall You give money to a project which is non-competitive from the very beginning no matter who sits behind the wheel? That's pure waste of money. And I don't even start to compare customer services which private teams can offer.

    Argument with gr.A would be good if it wasn't quarter century later than that time. Again please look at R-GT. Even without any competition from works team the formula ended with total disaster because teams neither need nor want cars which aren't good for anything else than having fun.
    Last edited by Mirek; 1st September 2017 at 17:36.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

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