Rally2 (ex-R5) News

[Arganil]

Is there a future for R5?

R5 was a good idea to allow amateurs to get new 4wd cars at a reasonable price but with the introduction of S2000 1.6T cars (RCC) in national or regional championships the concept is under threath.

From the past experiences of new categories cost control (remember S2000) the 150m€ price target is difficult to achieve, probably cars would cost near 200m€. At this price and knowing that R5 cars are less competitive than RRC, how many drivers would invest that kind of money with so little changes to win overall?

Probably teams and drivers with budget to run nowadays highly cost S2000NA cars will more easily evolve to RRC cars, so the remaining R5 purpose would be the replacement of N4 cars, but how many manus are interested in developing a 4wd amateurs car? Especially when the development process of a RRC would cost nearly the same?

Toyota has already answer these questions, developing the Yaris under RRC regs. Lets see how many more manus will follow this direction.

[Mirek]

R5 came after S2000 1.6T (or RRC) as their replacement not before. What is under threat is RRC not R5. What is highly expensive now is RRC not S2000 2.0NA. Those are not cheap but still are much cheaper than RRC (at least what I know about Fabia, Peugeot and Mini).

Than how did You come to the point that R5 will be slower than RRC? R5 will be at least on par (I bet they will be faster). Simply because they must be fast enough to have sense for manufacturers. There are talks about 3-5 cars already under development (Peugeot 208, Škoda Fabia, Ford Fiesta are sure). These cars are going to play the main role at least in the IRC where they can't loose with old 2.0NA cars. Works teams would not go into a suicidal action resulting they would look like a bunch of clowns beaten by amateurs in old cars.

Let's take it like this. The suspension and drivetrain will be virtually same with current S2000/RRC/WRC cars with the exception of five-speed gearbox. There is not much simpler to invent. What will be very different is the engine. Very expensive DI engine of RRC cars will be replaced by much simpler unit (I expect something like R3T engine). The funny thing is that the expensive engine of RRC cars is rather weak due to the small restrictor and since the R5 are supposed to have 2 mm larger they will be more powerful even with much simpler and cheaper unit.

[Arganil]

R5 was intended to replace S2000NA cars at a fraction of their price. The problem is that S2000T (RRC) came in the middle of the process and now R5 costs will rise in order to match RRC speed.

That has nothing to do with “poor man S2000” original concept and it’s a missed opportunity to make national and regional series affordable.

[Sulland]

R5 was intended to replace S2000NA cars at a fraction of the cost. (....)
It is a missed opportunity to make national and regional series affordable.

In my opinion the above is the essense.

Thinking twice about this news that MJW came with for 2014, I am starting to get cold feet.
If R5 will take over for WRCars as well, the cost will by default explode. And we will be back to the original issue, cost.

So better to keep the WRCars as is and keep R5 as a cheaper national/regional top class, as well as the new PWRCar.

[Arganil]

So better to keep the WRCars as is and keep R5 as a cheaper national/regional top class, as well as the new PWRCar.

Totally agree.

WRC in their S2000T form should be ban from FIA regional championships and national sanctioned series. This way R5 could be developed as a contained budget top class, with costs closer to N4/R4.

The sport needs a new national/regional affordable 4wd category. Top level S2000 cars (T and even the latest NA models) are too expensive in todays economical situation. N4/R4 are “close to extinction species” and to found national series on 2wd machinery (like the brits did) doesn’t suit the fans.

[Mirek]

R5 was intended to replace S2000NA cars at a fraction of their price. The problem is that S2000T (RRC) came in the middle of the process and now R5 costs will rise in order to match RRC speed.

No, the R5 came in time when the RRC already existed. Anyway RRC are not generally faster than 2.0NA S2000 (in some cases RRC is faster, in other S2000 is faster). There is therefore nothing new in the need for R5 to be competitive against the S2000.

As I said there isn't much to invent in suspension and drivetrain schema already used now. What can be easily replaced by much cheaper equivalent is the RRC engine and that's really easy. Just a play with restrictor size.

[Sulland]

Is that a significant date? I am told ALL WRC events are only being offered a one year deal for the calendar - 2013, could there be a significant re-launch of WRC in time for 2014, with R5T as the top class?

Is this info from a trustworthy source MJW, or just rumours?

[Arganil]

WRC 1.6T rules were only introduced in 2011. They were intended to attract new manu(facturer)s to wrc and technical stability is essential to bring and keep manus involved.

VW commitment is for at least 3 years and Toyota has a history of long term involvement, so there's a fair chance that WRC 1.6T will stand in top for a long time (2.0TWRC were there for 14 years).

The delay from FIA decision over R5 it's maybe linked with lack of interest from manus. If R5 cars are now intended to match RRC pace they'll not be cheap. With the same speed and almost the same price of RRC, why bother to create this new category?

And there's also the bigger picture: with FIA really committed to wrc, as it now seems, will there be another chance for other international series to threat the world rally championship prominence, as IRC did a few years ago?

Perhaps not. FIA will probably try to centre manus interest over actual wrc cars (WRC and RRC derivates), avoiding to create a new "manus friedly" 2nd level type of cars, equivalent to the successful S2000NA concept.

[Mirek]

wrc 1.6t rules were only introduced in 2011. They were intended to attract new manu(facturer)s to wrc and technical stability is essential to bring and keep manus involved.

No, in 2011 we had first season with ready cars but the rules were known long before.

The delay from fia decision over r5 it's maybe linked with lack of interest from manus. If r5 cars are now intended to match rrc pace they'll not be cheap. With the same speed and almost the same price of rrc, why bother to create this new category?

There is no lack of interest. At least three cars are sure in development now (rumors about five). I also don't know about delays from FIA side (maybe they are) but about delays from side of manufacturers. The price sure won't be same as in RRC case. Maybe it will be same or close to current S2000 but sure not to RRC. Running cost of Mini RRC is at least double compared to Peugeot or Fabia S2000!

And there's also the bigger picture: With fia really committed to wrc, as it now seems, will there be another chance for other international series to threat the world rally championship prominence, as irc did a few years ago?

IRC is going to merge with ERC and therefore become an FIA championship.

[A FONDO]

The delay from FIA decision over R5 it's maybe linked with lack of interest from manus. If R5 cars are now intended to match RRC pace they'll not be cheap. With the same speed and almost the same price of RRC, why bother to create this new category?

I think R5 would and should be between current S2000 and R4 in both aspects of power and maintenance cost. RRC remains for rich tourists only.