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  1. #641
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    I must caution you about trusting any rally related information from US fan-boy sites and NASIOC and VW Vortex are first and foremost fan-boy sites..
    You see in America it has never been socially acceptable for anybody to say "I don't know"....and this cuts across age, income, race, national origin, sexual preference , everything. I think this bad habit comes from an unfortunate mix of beliefs that Americans somehow imagine that only they have: Everybody was "created equally" and "everybody has a right to their own opinion" which becomes somehow "All opinions are equal"... with disastrous results.
    Somebody did say there that older Gp A cars had "about 2,0 turns lock to lock",, This is very close..My Group A 4x4 Cosworth rack has 1,9 turns lock to lock while the road car version is 2,65 turns..
    Mirek is spot on about the limiting of rack travel.. here in Fortress Amerika™ where everything is Grape again, VW Golf is very popular...and for 30 years it is a chronic problem of guys breaking the guts of the CV joints and even shearing off the spline part of the outer CV..
    Regardless of how many times I have told the guys and even shown them the VWMS (VW Motorsports) catalog and pointed to the nylon spacers to limit max rack travel, I know of nobody who has done it..
    They just keep doing the same old stuff and breaking their CVs--and this with barely any power by normal standards...
    There's one thing to bear in mind when we say "turns lock to lock" and that is "how much does the rack move per turn of the pinion or steering wheel.. Nobody ever says anything because nobody is interested in facts---remember opinion counts and all opinions are exactly equal..
    But I'm only half American and I lived a long time in some cold frozen Northern country to learn motorsports so I count.
    Example (not WRC cars but wonderfully good cars anyway) Volvo 240 has nice ZF PS rack, the rack moves 55mm per turn or the wheel..Road car Sierra in USA has nice ZF and that moves 64mm per turn...
    Clearly quicker and very good and you can notice it in normal driving..

    As for how much is enough or how much is not enough..when i lived in that frozen country up North I rode mainly Husqvarna and for 2 seasons KTM, LOTS of angle.. maybe a bit more than 90*.. For a few of my first prodessional events I road West German Maico..They had MUCH less turning angle..
    Never even thought about it on track..Only time it made a difference was in the parking area when I putter along, see my car, turn and pull up to the NEXT guys trailer...
    Ooops.

    I am curious why you ask, tell us what you are plotting...
    Last edited by janvanvurpa; 22nd June 2017 at 06:41.
    John Vanlandingham
    Sleezattle WA, USA
    Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

  2. #642
    Junior Member Jack#07's Avatar
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    Thank you.
    Since the years of the transition from gr.a to wrc I noticed a gradual reduction of steering wheel total turning degrees (maybe thanks to the more permissive regulations of wrc cars?) I've always wondered how it is determined and if it is a driver preference or it's set by engineers. I can immagine that with less total steering degrees you can drive faster due to shorter and quicker steering inputs but if you exceeed it will result in a too sensitive control.. So it makes me think that reducing the wheels rotation (increasing turn radius) will also help in keeping the car controllable by reducing the sensitivity of the shortened steering wheel inputs...
    I thought that the ratio would change from rally to rally but it seems to be fixed or it's just engineer's job..!

  3. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by janvanvurpa View Post
    I must caution you about trusting any rally related information from US fan-boy sites and NASIOC and VW Vortex are first and foremost fan-boy sites..
    You see in America it has never been socially acceptable for anybody to say "I don't know"....and this cuts across age, income, race, national origin, sexual preference , everything. I think this bad habit comes from an unfortunate mix of beliefs that Americans somehow imagine that only they have: Everybody was "created equally" and "everybody has a right to their own opinion" which becomes somehow "All opinions are equal"... with disastrous results.
    Somebody did say there that older Gp A cars had "about 2,0 turns lock to lock",, This is very close..My Group A 4x4 Cosworth rack has 1,9 turns lock to lock while the road car version is 2,65 turns..
    Mirek is spot on about the limiting of rack travel.. here in Fortress Amerika™ where everything is Grape again, VW Golf is very popular...and for 30 years it is a chronic problem of guys breaking the guts of the CV joints and even shearing off the spline part of the outer CV..
    Regardless of how many times I have told the guys and even shown them the VWMS (VW Motorsports) catalog and pointed to the nylon spacers to limit max rack travel, I know of nobody who has done it..
    They just keep doing the same old stuff and breaking their CVs--and this with barely any power by normal standards...
    There's one thing to bear in mind when we say "turns lock to lock" and that is "how much does the rack move per turn of the pinion or steering wheel.. Nobody ever says anything because nobody is interested in facts---remember opinion counts and all opinions are exactly equal..
    But I'm only half American and I lived a long time in some cold frozen Northern country to learn motorsports so I count.
    Example (not WRC cars but wonderfully good cars anyway) Volvo 240 has nice ZF PS rack, the rack moves 55mm per turn or the wheel..Road car Sierra in USA has nice ZF and that moves 64mm per turn...
    Clearly quicker and very good and you can notice it in normal driving..

    As for how much is enough or how much is not enough..when i lived in that frozen country up North I rode mainly Husqvarna and for 2 seasons KTM, LOTS of angle.. maybe a bit more than 90*.. For a few of my first prodessional events I road West German Maico..They had MUCH less turning angle..
    Never even thought about it on track..Only time it made a difference was in the parking area when I putter along, see my car, turn and pull up to the NEXT guys trailer...
    Ooops.

    I am curious why you ask, tell us what you are plotting...
    Straight up question, are you John VanLandingham from that Easier Said than Done film? His voice was just really, really distinctive, and I get the same sense from you, especially how you play with words. I only ask so I can put a face on the comments here.

  4. #644
    Senior Member racerx1979's Avatar
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    The famous JVL who was kicked out of the US rally forum?

  5. Likes: janvanvurpa (2nd September 2017)
  6. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonnybobiche View Post
    Straight up question, are you John VanLandingham from that Easier Said than Done film? His voice was just really, really distinctive, and I get the same sense from you, especially how you play with words. I only ask so I can put a face on the comments here.
    That's him. The one and only.
    2009 Colorado Rally Cup Champion & 2009 CHCA Rookie Of the Year

  7. Likes: sonnybobiche (3rd September 2017)

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