The Kill Team

[Daniel]

Hondo, please read the article. I'm certainly resigned to the fact that civillians can and will die by accident in war zones, it's just the nature of the beast, especially when you're talking about a conflict like Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan where the enemy doesn't necessarily label himself helpfully with a uniform, but this was nothing other than murder. Watch some of the videos on there as well..... it's just wrong....

[Captain VXR]

If guilty they should be executed by firing squad but then that might send a message to any others who would consider doing this.

For once, I agree with you Bob

[markabilly]

I did not read the entire article and haven't yet. But I will. I'm not saying killing unarmed civilians is acceptable, I'm saying it happens. Always has and always will. I do say it's more likely to occur when an army is up against an enemy that uses hit and run tactics or remotely fired munitions. In small units, after repeated causualties with nothing to show in return, everybody becomes the enemy. That was a major problem in Vietnam. The 11B (infantry) classification in the US Army is one of the easiest classifications they have to meet. The Army, just like the civilian population, doesn't always have people that are playing the game with a full deck of cards. Sometimes they don't have the maturity to handle it. Holmes at age 19, cannot legally buy a pistol or booze in most if not all of the United States. But over there, he is in a position to potentially call in air strikes and burn hundreds of people, unquestioned. So you've got a 21 year old and a 19 year old, probably raised thinking playing first person shooters on an xbox 360 is a reflection of some form of reality, free to operate where they are the law. What do you expect? As far as upsetting the local populations goes, you are doing that just by being there. You came in and took their personal arms, you question them at will, make them provide ID, search their houses at will, and ask them questions about the insurgents. After you leave, the insurgents come down and slap them around until they know everything about the gringos that visited today. It's not our culture, they don't want our culture, say excuse me, get out, come home.

As an aside, it seems I remember the 15 year old was poppie farming. Some culture may consider what the soldiers did as executing a narcotics supplier. Who knows.

I understand where you are coming from. Real close and personal. Everyone has a dark side and when put under enough stress, it will come forth and do some horrible things. The difference in people is just how much does it take to make someone flip. For some, it is only a litle bit and for others, it is massive. All it takes is enough stress for a long enough time, and anyone will lose control. Until you have been shot at and shot back, it is hard to say how you would react.

Many folks think they never would, not ever, go nuts and do unspeakable things, but I say BS on that. Just put enough and long enough stress and sooner or later: POP!

Add in that this is an enemy who is notorius for doing the very same thing that these soldiers are alleged, which is premeditated murder, with the blessing of some of thier religous leaders, against red cross workers and humantarians, as well as their very own women, children and men of their own society because they said something that the leaders did not like or because they wanted to read and write.......

However, assuming the article is accurate, and that is a very BIG ASSUMPTION, what is described is simple premeditated murder. These guys did not react to that type of stress, but appear in the article as not getting enough thrills, and so decided to create their own excitement.

Not only have they committed murder, but they have in effect disobeyed te standards and orders of the miltary as well as essentially commited treason by providing an example of the type of behavior that gives aid and comfort to our enemies that they can use as an example to encourage more insurrection and problems.


Which is why I feel as I do about Libya. As the old saying goes, you can ride the tiger all you want, but once on, you just can not get off....

[Daniel]

Not only have they committed murder, but they have in effect disobeyed te standards and orders of the miltary as well as essentially commited treason by providing an example of the type of behavior that gives aid and comfort to our enemies that they can use as an example to encourage more insurrection and problems.

That's why I've always maintained that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have to be as squeaky clean as possible. A wedding party in a building getting killed by a bomb is bad enough, but some hicks killing civillians who are innocent (not having been proven to be guilty of anything) just makes it easy for the Taliban to recruit people to fight for them.

Tbh these guys should go on trial and if they are found guilty they should be executed in Afghanistan and if possible it should be done in public to show that the US doesn't consider Afghan civillians lives worthless.

[markabilly]

if found guilty of the behavior described, yep; however, it will take far more than the story of some reporter published in the Rolling Stone Rock Star magazine before I even think about triggers being pulled.

[Eki]

That's why I've always maintained that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have to be as squeaky clean as possible. A wedding party in a building getting killed by a bomb is bad enough, but some hicks killing civillians who are innocent (not having been proven to be guilty of anything) just makes it easy for the Taliban to recruit people to fight for them.

Tbh these guys should go on trial and if they are found guilty they should be executed in Afghanistan and if possible it should be done in public to show that the US doesn't consider Afghan civillians lives worthless.

I'm against death penalty, but I think they should be judged in an Afghan court. If that means death penalty, so be it, but I'd say life in some Afghan prison would be a suitable punishment, even if "life" meant something like 12 years.

[Eki]

I did not read the entire article and haven't yet. But I will. I'm not saying killing unarmed civilians is acceptable, I'm saying it happens. Always has and always will. I do say it's more likely to occur when an army is up against an enemy that uses hit and run tactics or remotely fired munitions.

Yes, the Germans sometimes killed local residents in occupied territories for revenge after resistance had used hit and run tactics or remotely fired munitions against them in WW2. Some of them have been prosecuted and convicted as war criminals.

[Norwegian Blue]

Big Warning... Didn't expect to see what was in those photos... especially some later in the album are hugely disturbing and i wish i'd never seen anything like that. Unless you are incredibly numb to human suffering do not look.

[Garry Walker]

That's why I've always maintained that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have to be as squeaky clean as possible. A wedding party in a building getting killed by a bomb is bad enough, but some hicks killing civillians who are innocent (not having been proven to be guilty of anything) just makes it easy for the Taliban to recruit people to fight for them.

Tbh these guys should go on trial and if they are found guilty they should be executed in Afghanistan and if possible it should be done in public to show that the US doesn't consider Afghan civillians lives worthless.

I thought you were against death penalty? Now you are about as blood hungry as possible, why is that so?

[Hondo]

Yes, the Germans sometimes killed local residents in occupied territories for revenge after resistance had used hit and run tactics or remotely fired munitions against them in WW2. Some of them have been prosecuted and convicted as war criminals.

Sometimes? The Germans and Russians hacked away at each other without mercy for the entire war. If the Germans had won, the Soviets would have been the war criminals, if Germany had even bothered with something like that.