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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Krogshöj
    Apologies for using the word stupid, I referred to the verbal abuse and didn't mean it as a personal insult. However, in my experience, more often than not, community control ensures that eventually, the correct informations will end up in most articles. The very reason for most of the wrong articles may be the fact that people who have the knowledge to correct them, restain from editing on the grounds that half-witted, uneducated will change it to bullcrap.
    Apologies humbly accepted. As I stated, that Shannon's Law seems to eventually prevail for the most part when the item being discussed has high visibility and a high interest level does not necessarily lead to that applying to the topics of lesser interest. As stated, while I applaud the basic idea of the Wikipedia, its concept and execution has left much to be desired. End of story as far as I am concerned.
    Popular memory is not history.... -- Gordon Wood

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lousada
    What's your basis for this? You can actually own history as bizarre as that may sound. As far as I understand the IRL bought Champcar, and since Champcar continued out of CART, the IRL now owns the history of both CC and CART. That this is incredibly ironic and historically inaccurate is also a fact.
    Another example of this complicated matter is the Team Lotus/Group Lotus saga, where Team owns the F1 records while Group owns everything else.
    I think the phrase 'owning history' is a bit of a misnomer here. It's hard to explain what I mean, but the history is what it is, while company or rights ownership changes. There should be no problem so long as the new owners' references to history are accurate.

  3. #13
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    For some background on this topic for those few who might be interested, I would suggest going to Automobile Racing History and History or Case History and Casey and Clio Has a Corollary: Part II, Rear View Mirror, Volume 7, No.6, and then down to "Case History: John Glenn Printz and the Struggle for the Past" which is subtitled, "The A.A.A. Catastrophe: Arthur Means, Val Haresnape, Russ Catlin, and Bob Russo." This is a short discussion of the problems with the history of the AAA national championship and how it got that way.
    Popular memory is not history.... -- Gordon Wood

  4. #14
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    For those who seem to be having problems with grasping the realities of what we might refer to as the history of the "United States National Championship," you are not alone.

    The problem that seems to be evident is that some seem to think that the "United States National Championship" is literally continuous despite the changes in the sanctioning or organizing group when that is not actually the case. What has happened is that there have been breaks in the lineage of the "United States National Championship" at various points along the way. I will attempt to provide the "short version" of all this.

    The American Automobile Association (AAA) was organized in 1902 and in 1905 held the "National Motor Car Championship" which was won by -- of all people -- Barney Oldfield. Its inaugural season of the AAA National Championship was held in 1916, interrupted by the Great War in 1917 and resumed in 1920, running until the next interruption by war, 1941. It resumed once more in 1946 -- a rather confusing year for the championship -- and the final AAA national championship season was 1955, the series ending when the AAA withdrew from sanctioning automobile racing.

    In 1955, in the days following the announcement of the AAA Contest Board's withdrawal, the United States Auto Club (USAC) was formed. Its inaugural season was 1956 and USAC treated it as a new championship -- one need only to look at their yearbooks to realize this. Beginning with the 1971 season, USAC created new championships for road racing and the Dirt Tracks, the National Championship Trail being exclusively for ovals until the 1977 season when road races were re-admitted to the series. In 1980, USAC ended its national championship after withdrawing from the Championship Racing League (CRL), which was the result of an agreement with CART to run a combined series during the 1980 season, which USAC reneged on after the Mid-Ohio round.

    USAC then created a new championship, the Gold Crown Series, which would begin with the 1981 season. The fields were so thin that both cars and races from the Silver Crown Series -- the new name for the Sprint Car series -- had to be added to the series, it eventually being reduced to a single event: the International 500 Mile Sweepstakes. This series ended in 1995.

    In 1978, the Championship Auto Racing Teams (CART) was formed, its inaugural season being the 1979 season. In 1980, it participated with USAC in the short-lived CRL, which USAC withdrew from after fifth race. CART ceased to exist after the 2003 season. As in the case of USAC, it treated its championship as a new championship, not a continuation of that of USAC, much less the AAA.

    In 1994, the Indy Racing League (IRL) was formed and held its inaugural season in 1996.

    In 2004, the remaining physical assets of CART were bought by Open Wheel Racing Series which then created the Champ Car World Series, when then folded in early 2008, its physical assets being bought by the IRL, to include the various administrative records.

    So, the lineage of the "United States National Championship" has several breaks in it long before we get to the current somewhat messy, convoluted mishmash that is the IRL or IndyCar Series (ICS), 1955 and 1980 as well as 2003.

    It is no surprise that racing fans ignore all this and show nothing but disdain for the "political machinations" of automobile racing. That is also quite irrelevant. The "racing politics" and all that goes with it are an integral part of automobile racing history regardless of what fans may or may not think. It is the job, the duty, of the historian to dig into things and sort out the mess that the past almost invariably is in the case of the history of automobile racing. While things has gotten much better than they were even as recently as only a dozen years ago, much remains to be done, a great deal inn fact.

    Some may huff and sniff and regard all the above as "quibbling" while others refuse to entertain any thoughts about the effects of "political machinations" of automobile racing since it ruins their enjoyment of the sport and yet others will choose to ignore all of what has been presented and regard it all as one big glump despite all evidence to the contrary. Again, that is irrelevant. While one wishes that this was not the case, it is also worthy of note that Denis Jenkinson comes up rather short as an automotive historian given his inclination to not bother his readers with the "racing politics" that directly affected the sport he was reporting on, which meant that there was much left unsaid that he simply refused to chronicle. At least Jenkinson did not present the half-truths, legends, and outright nonsense that other journalists indulged themselves in their writings.
    Popular memory is not history.... -- Gordon Wood

  5. #15
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    It is a mess, isn't it? I always think about the Indy 500 in this. CART drivers ran the race from 1979 to 1994, but never once had the sanction, yet paid points every year except 1981 and 1982. It's no wonder everyone wants to claim "history" as their own.
    ¿Quién es el que anda aquí?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyshell
    Mr. Capps,

    You had plenty of time to write up this diatribe here, you could have just as easily posted a copy to Wikipedia. And the reality is you are quibbling semantics with this nonsense. So what if they were all separate series, they were all a continuum of championship open wheel racing in the US. Some of us are much more interested in the history of that continuum than we are in the political machinations of one series versus another.

    Gary
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Capps
    It is no surprise that racing fans ignore all this and show nothing but disdain for the "political machinations" of automobile racing. That is also quite irrelevant. The "racing politics" and all that goes with it are an integral part of automobile racing history regardless of what fans may or may not think. It is the job, the duty, of the historian to dig into things and sort out the mess that the past almost invariably is in the case of the history of automobile racing. While things has gotten much better than they were even as recently as only a dozen years ago, much remains to be done, a great deal inn fact.

    Some may huff and sniff and regard all the above as "quibbling" while others refuse to entertain any thoughts about the effects of "political machinations" of automobile racing since it ruins their enjoyment of the sport and yet others will choose to ignore all of what has been presented and regard it all as one big glump despite all evidence to the contrary. Again, that is irrelevant. While one wishes that this was not the case, it is also worthy of note that Denis Jenkinson comes up rather short as an automotive historian given his inclination to not bother his readers with the "racing politics" that directly affected the sport he was reporting on, which meant that there was much left unsaid that he simply refused to chronicle. At least Jenkinson did not present the half-truths, legends, and outright nonsense that other journalists indulged themselves in their writings.
    Gee, would you be talking about me? In our lifetime has there ever been a year that didn't have some form of open-wheel championship auto racing? (I've been a fan since about 1958 and can't remember a year that the cars didn't run.) Sure, there have been various sanctioning bodies come and go and even some overlap, but there has still been a continuous string of races year after year. And some of us could really care less about which "political machination" was in control at any time when we look back at the history of races and racers. To us all that really matters are those people and those events. If you are more interested in the politics behind them and want to deliniate those races in to neat little pockets based on the politics, fine. But don't expect every one here to share in that.

    Gary
    "If you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem." --- George Carlin :andrea: R.I.P.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyshell
    Gee, would you be talking about me? In our lifetime has there ever been a year that didn't have some form of open-wheel championship auto racing? (I've been a fan since about 1958 and can't remember a year that the cars didn't run.) Sure, there have been various sanctioning bodies come and go and even some overlap, but there has still been a continuous string of races year after year. And some of us could really care less about which "political machination" was in control at any time when we look back at the history of races and racers. To us all that really matters are those people and those events. If you are more interested in the politics behind them and want to deliniate those races in to neat little pockets based on the politics, fine. But don't expect every one here to share in that.

    Gary
    You present the opportunity to point out that while sanctioning bodies and series come and go, that aspect of lineage often being broken and somewhat mangled, that in many cases the teams and drivers and others simply move along and adjust to the situation. That important factor tends to mask the changes that take place, those breaks in the lineage, and does provides a sense of continuity to what would otherwise be an even more messy past. However, this does not change the fact that significant changes have taken place.
    Popular memory is not history.... -- Gordon Wood

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Capps
    You present the opportunity to point out that while sanctioning bodies and series come and go, that aspect of lineage often being broken and somewhat mangled, that in many cases the teams and drivers and others simply move along and adjust to the situation. That important factor tends to mask the changes that take place, those breaks in the lineage, and does provides a sense of continuity to what would otherwise be an even more messy past. However, this does not change the fact that significant changes have taken place.
    I certainly didn't mean to imply in any way that those changes were not significant. But as you said, "in many cases the teams and drivers and others simply move along and adjust to the situation", and I would include most of the fans (with the notable exception of those on both sides who didn't get the message that the war is over). And while you assessment of the history is absolutely correct, I think most fans don't really give a whit about the delineation of sanctioning bodies when they start "bench racing" and the talk turns to who won the most races etc. I know I am certainly among that group. If driver x won 13 races spread across three different sanctioning bodies, I still think he won 13 races.

    Cheers,
    Gary
    "If you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem." --- George Carlin :andrea: R.I.P.

  9. #19
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    IMHO, the national championship in American Open wheel racing has always been defined by the Indy 500, even though I was firmly in the "other" camp during the split.

    Ever try to follow what side the "good guys" were on in the Star Wars saga?
    HINCHTOWN!!

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyshell
    ....And while you assessment of the history is absolutely correct, I think most fans don't really give a whit about the delineation of sanctioning bodies when they start "bench racing" and the talk turns to who won the most races etc. I know I am certainly among that group. If driver x won 13 races spread across three different sanctioning bodies, I still think he won 13 races.
    I will only point out something the Daniel Patrick Moynihan said: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."

    Quote Originally Posted by nigelred5
    IMHO, the national championship in American Open wheel racing has always been defined by the Indy 500, even though I was firmly in the "other" camp during the split.
    The management of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway worked ceaselessly to turn the annual Decoration Day -- later Memorial Day -- running of the International 500 Mile Sweepstakes into a major American and international sporting event, with little to no regard to American automobile racing as a whole. In doing so, they planted the seeds that later sprouted as weeds and not flowers. If there is one factor that has in the long term managed to create many of the problems that has plague the "US National Championship" concept and its various series, it is Indianapolis.

    By the mid-Twenties, the Indianapolis event was the premier US event in automobile racing; by the Thirties, it was just about the only US automobile race that people knew about. During this period the AAA Contest Board and the IMS management were synonymous, to the detriment of any other racing event or series attempting to gain national recognition. If you take a step back and look at the problems that have beset the "US National Championship" for at least the past four decades, Indianapolis is always the root of the problem -- and rarely the solution.
    Popular memory is not history.... -- Gordon Wood

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