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[Dave B]

Lets face it, the reality is anyone driving into midtown London isn't doing it because he likes driving, he is doing it because he either lives there or has something he has to do that wont allow him to take the Tube. Which is why a predatory and discriminatory tax on "congestion" is just a tax grab by a Mayor who obviously has an anti-car and anti freedom of choice agenda.

Yes and no. You make a good point, but I remember when I worked in North London in '98 driving down the M1 on a summer's day and seeing from a distance the cloud of brown smog hanging over the city. Something needed to be done about traffic levels, and in defence of congestion charging the air quality has increased massively.

But as you correctly say, the charge fails to take into account whether somebody wants or needs to drive into London, and only considers their financial ability to do so.

[BDunnell]

Lets face it, the reality is anyone driving into midtown London isn't doing it because he likes driving, he is doing it because he either lives there or has something he has to do that wont allow him to take the Tube. Which is why a predatory and discriminatory tax on "congestion" is just a tax grab by a Mayor who obviously has an anti-car and anti freedom of choice agenda.

Which Mayor? Don't forget, the current incumbent is a Conservative, and he neither pledged to scrap the charge, nor decided to do so once in office.

And as for the rest of your post, it is, I feel, completely wrong to assume that every car journey in London is necessary. Many people will use their cars in London merely because they can. I lived in London for nine years and never once was I unable to make a journey I wished to make on public transport, except in exceptional circumstances like snow and after terrorist attacks. I'm sure far, far more people than you give credit for would actually be able to manage without driving in London if they tried — and many more people need to do so, because congestion in some areas remains appalling. Interestingly, though, where I last lived in London, congestion on my bus route to the railway station decreased markedly during the school holidays. There should be no need in a capital city to make the school run by car.

[Mark]

That's probably more to do with parents taking holidays at the same time as their kids than school run traffic. You see the same affect on motorways, well away from schools.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Which Mayor? Don't forget, the current incumbent is a Conservative, and he neither pledged to scrap the charge, nor decided to do so once in office.

And as for the rest of your post, it is, I feel, completely wrong to assume that every car journey in London is necessary. Many people will use their cars in London merely because they can. I lived in London for nine years and never once was I unable to make a journey I wished to make on public transport, except in exceptional circumstances like snow and after terrorist attacks. I'm sure far, far more people than you give credit for would actually be able to manage without driving in London if they tried — and many more people need to do so, because congestion in some areas remains appalling. Interestingly, though, where I last lived in London, congestion on my bus route to the railway station decreased markedly during the school holidays. There should be no need in a capital city to make the school run by car.

Ben, I don't care if he is a "Conservative", he is a politician, and they never met a tax they couldn't defend if the political option was telling the people they couldn't have something.

Your experience's in London notwithstanding, I beg to differ on people driving in London. YOU may feel people could do it all with transit, but most people don't enjoy sitting in traffic. I know in the case of Toronto, a city far less served with a subway net people sit in traffic and HATE it with a passion. But when it comes to the convenience of not waiting for transit, or being able to make multiple stops on the way home for whatever reason, a car will beat waiting for buses all the time. IF Toronto had a "Tube" option like London, I suspect it would change a lot of people's opinion. Maybe Londoners take it for granted. London and New York have the two most densely detailed subway systems on the planet, and no New Yorker drives in Manhattan unless he has a damn good reason to. I am going to go out on the limb Ben and say you may think they could do it with transit, but I disagree. I just know human nature. I am one of the more pro car guys of anyone who posts on this board and if I had the option, I wouldn't drive in town. It just makes no sense.....and I can read the paper on the train. People frown on you doing that and going for a drive!

[BDunnell]

YOU may feel people could do it all with transit, but most people don't enjoy sitting in traffic.

In which case, why do they go by car? I'm not sure what your point is here.

[Mark in Oshawa]

In which case, why do they go by car? I'm not sure what your point is here.

They go by car if they have mulitple stops. They go by car if they are possibly needing to pick up groceries or shopping. They go by car if they don't want to wait for a bus in the inclement weather. As I said, I don't see why anyone in London WOULD drive if they have to. In Toronto, a city with only a few major subway lines, but extensive streetcar/LRT and bus links, come winter time is a city that is more comfortable in the car..even if if you are stuck in traffic.

My point all along in this thread is transit has to be appealing enough to pull people out of the car. In London's case, That is true, leaving only those who really have no other options for their personal lifestyle needs. Personally, I am thinking some must just hate being near other people, because I know sitting in traffic, no matter where you are is miserable.

[Drew]

Even in Newcastle with the metro, they don't have enough trains so it's often nearly a 15 minute wait sometimes.

A 15 minute wait? My god most people down here would laugh at you for complaining about that. My local train station has 9 trains a day in each direction and if you miss one train (or they cancel it, which seems to happen a bit) then you have to wait 2 hours or so for the next one. Oh well, I guess we're lucky to have anything at all :

As I said, I don't see why anyone in London WOULD drive if they have to. In Toronto, a city with only a few major subway lines, but extensive streetcar/LRT and bus links, come winter time is a city that is more comfortable in the car..even if if you are stuck in traffic.

My point all along in this thread is transit has to be appealing enough to pull people out of the car. In London's case, That is true, leaving only those who really have no other options for their personal lifestyle needs. Personally, I am thinking some must just hate being near other people, because I know sitting in traffic, no matter where you are is miserable.

I think the problem is getting from one side to the other, although the system there is good it can be quite slow. I went from Victoria coach station to Heathrow airport and it took about an hour even though it didn't look that far on the map. But they are going to build this crossrail, so that'll speed things up!

I bet that Toronto is a lot more spread out that London is and has less people too. Toronto was probably built as a car city, whilst London was being built well before the car was even invented. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be typical for North American cities.

[Azumanga Davo]

Even in Newcastle with the metro, they don't have enough trains so it's often nearly a 15 minute wait sometimes.

That's a very good frequency for an inner-city light rail option though. When they first started the South Hylton link, sometimes it would take an hour for the next one. That was before they equalised the route distances a bit better though.

[Mark]

A 15 minute wait? My god most people down here would laugh at you for complaining about that. My local train station has 9 trains a day in each direction and if you miss one train (or they cancel it, which seems to happen a bit) then you have to wait 2 hours or so for the next one. Oh well, I guess we're lucky to have anything at all :

Well I'm talking about the city centre here!

If were talking about local train stations, firstly, Chester-le-Street is lucky to have one at all, and the frequency is similar to yours, about 8-9 trains per day, usually with a 2 hour gap between each.

[Mark]

That's a very good frequency for an inner-city light rail option though. When they first started the South Hylton link, sometimes it would take an hour for the next one. That was before they equalised the route distances a bit better though.

Back in the day, Metro's used to be every 3-4 minutes, but then they built the Sunderland link and are now operating a much larger network with the same number of trains, so the frequency has gone down.