The European Union

[BDunnell]

You mean immigration within Europe I take it? That was a very deliberate move on the part of the EU.

The fact is that the EU sees the US and China as strong competitors. Both economies have their productivity boosted by migration. In America's case it imports both talent and cheap labour from outside (legally or illegally), in China's case the migration is internal from the poor interior to the developed coast.

For individual European countries this kind of migration simply isn't possible. Most European countries have fairly 'flat' economies where wealth is pretty evenly distributed so internal migration doesn't really work. By opening up migration within the EU though, any economic hotspot within Europe quickly attracts workers from other parts giving it access to cheaper labour and also redistribution of wealth within Europe to let poorer areas grow. Mass migration of Poles to the UK is a great example, they've contributed a lot to the economy particularly in construction and agriculture and they've sent a lot of money home to boost Poland's economic growth. Now the difference between the Polish and British economies isn't as large so migration has started to flow the other way, Poles are going home.

Of course it hasn't been sold this way to the electorate but that is the underlying philosophy behind free internal migration in the EU.

Indeed. On that basis, any supporter of the free market ought to be supportive. Unfortunately, many people of that persuasion seem to have an unduly restricted view of what the free market actually entails, owing to their own political prejudices.

[Drew]

The EU does a great job at closing the inequality differences in Europe. Rundown parts of north England would have not seen any investment at all if it wasn't for the EU development fund.

Seriously?! It seems like the north gets a disproportionate amount of government spending at times! How often does Manchester get regenerated? :

But keeping on topic. I'm in favour of the EU on the whole. I don't particularly agree with the amount of power the EU has. But the positives outweigh the negatives. Europe has to stick together to be able to compete against the USA, China and other countries.

[fandango]

I think the existence of the EU makes a repeat of WWI or WWII in Europe (bit of a contradiction in terms there, I know) a lot less likely, and that's a good thing.

[Mark]

I think the existence of the EU makes a repeat of WWI or WWII in Europe (bit of a contradiction in terms there, I know) a lot less likely, and that's a good thing.

That is true, but I think we would have gone in that direction anyway. Industrialised countries have finally realised that there is more to be gained from democracy and making money than trying to invade your neighbours.

I would wager that it's the complete devastation of the Second World War that shook us into that belief, and not the European Union.

However in general I'm in favour of a strong EU.

[Cooper_S]

The EU is not perfect... but does good works a lot unnoticed.

Maybe it expanded too quickly but with the break up of the Soviet Union many of those newly emancipated nations would have faced dire futures without the EU, maybe without the EEC/EC/EU the end of the Soviet Union would have taken far longer if it would have happened at all.

I still see myself as pro EU despite it's short comings

[ioan]

I am all for the EU, it sure has a few shortcomings, but nothing is perfect and in this case the positives hugely outweigh the negatives.

Funny how our US posters who know bugger all about what the EU does for the Europeans are against it and want to see it crumble, are they afraid that they will lose their 'supremacy'?!

[donKey jote]

methinks they're only "jealous"

[race aficionado]

methinks they're only "jealous"

I'm one of them ignorants.

I can only refer to my personal experience when I first went to Europe with my back pack, my Eurail train pass and my reference book called "Europe at $10 dollars a Day" . . . . yes, it's dated. . . . 1974!

Any way . . . I quickly learned that the affordable havens were Spain and Italy and I was looking forward to return someday to enjoy the bargains and now with the EU and the dollar gone bonkers, prices leveled and even got a bit over priced.

I know, I may be showing my age and out of touchness with good ol' Europe.

So enlighten me please.

mokin:

[ioan]

methinks they're only "jealous"

I guess you are right donks!

[Hondo]

I am all for the EU, it sure has a few shortcomings, but nothing is perfect and in this case the positives hugely outweigh the negatives.

Funny how our US posters who know bugger all about what the EU does for the Europeans are against it and want to see it crumble, are they afraid that they will lose their 'supremacy'?!

I'm not against the EU, could care less really. But the question was asked and my answer, like most of my answers, was based upon the historical steadfastness of human nature. Now that everybody and their brother has their own country in Europe the question is how many of these countries can completely support themselves? Few, if any at all. In addition, as populations grow, they become less able to sustain themselves in a limited geographical area. You can't put 10 liters of product in a 5 liter bag. Your options are to strictly control population growth or become stagnant and sink into starvation and poverty or go to war to gain more territory or form an alliance to make nice-nice with everybody else. Even within an alliance, everyone will not be equal and those with the most to lose will be willing to risk the least, especially on those they view as acting irresponsibly in their domestic policies. It will not be possible to evenly spread trade agreements over the entire union and ultimately the consumer will select the lower cost product, if available, whether it is manufactured within the union or outside the union. If it came down to a hardcore trade protectionism issue, I don't know if the EU could hold out on it's own. Russia still lives and could become a threat the EU cannot counter anytime it wishes. All it has to do is close a few pipelines and Europe freezes in the dark.

The biggest strike against the EU is it's attempt to make that lofty, Utopian concept of multiculturalism work. It makes for an intriguing philosophy, but doesn't work in real world application. Multiculturalism has been the downfall of all the great empires, including the British Empire. That multiculturalism doesn't work is why you now have so many independent countries in Europe again and why Russia broke up after the Soviet Union folded the tent. Each member of the EU would have to be 100% equal of every other member and in reality, that isn't going to happen. It is doing some good now by helping to keep heads above water until something better comes along but at some point as members are able to stand by themselves, it will become a money pit of which will have the more successful members question their funding.