The European Union

[MrMetro]

Although I criticised the EU in the Liberal Democrat thread, I have since read more about the EU.

Although it has its negatives, it also has positives. My stance on the EU is I have no strong opinion for or against it.

I was wondering what others think of the EU. Please, no personal attacks like in the Lib Dem thread, lets have a mature discussion.

[Roamy]

I am against it. I liked Europe the way it was. All the countries with their own identity. It was fun screwing around with currency and going to countries offering the best value. Although it was still somewhat controlled. I am also beginning to change my opinion about the so called global economy. I need to study a bit more on that. In addition I am afraid that the EU will and has led to free for all immigration which in the long run will change Europe as we have known it. These are all personal thoughts and I suspect the Euros will be on here with the factual information that we an debate.

[Hondo]

I think the EU is well on it's way to becoming an irrelevant facade organization, similar to the UN. I have long held the belief that things like financial recessions are not "cured" by government or established business. They are not cured at all. Instead, common folks like us make adjustments to our life styles that soon become habit and we learn to operate under the new conditions, including new ways to make money. As we get better at it, talk of recession fizzles away and whichever political party happens to be in the majority at the time takes credit for "ending the recession". In dealing with recession, most become nationalistic and will look to cure themselves first. Countries that have tried to be more financially responsible are going to be loath to bail out countries that have run wild with their social spending. In addition, immigration becomes a sore point as guest workers take jobs from citizens, forgetting of course, if citizens were willing to do the jobs, the guest workers wouldn't be there to start with. I think there are way too many cultural, ethnic, tribal, and racial differences mixed with a constantly changing leadership for the EU to ever be anything other than it's own self-creating industry.

[F1boat]

Strongly for it. First of all, it has helped a lot to my country. The politicians in Bulgaria are notoriously corrupt and most, if not all, come from the old Communist party and can not be trusted to be faithful to democracy. The EU has helped a lot, not as much as I hoped, but a lot.

[Roamy]

Hondo

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The EU does a great job at closing the inequality differences in Europe. Rundown parts of north England would have not seen any investment at all if it wasn't for the EU development fund.

It also helps European nations hold some power on world affairs, since our economies have been overtaken by the US, China and Japan.

The idea that the EU has harmed the identity and individuality of soveriegn European nations is nonsense.

And the big plus point for the EU - since the foundation of the European Economic Community in the 1950's Europe has never been as peaceful.

[Hondo]

Whether the rundown parts of north England, Latvia, or Chicago receive new business investment is as much up to what kind of business friendly climate the locality and host nation are willing to provide for it, protectionism aside. If you adopt a "if you want to sell it here then you must make some here" attitude, then being a member of a cartel or union can be beneficial sometimes. Nothing works forever though. Your peaceful times were more the product of a common fear of the Soviets and the creation of NATO than anything the EEC had it's hands in. World War I was basically started by a couple of piss ant nationalities kicking dirt at each other which got out of hand and then the grand alliances kicked in, creating a huge mess. World War II has it's roots in the heavy handed terms of the WW I armistice.

As far as "inequality differences" goes, I doubt the English, French, or Germans view Estonia, Latvia, and Slovakia as their equals. When you get a whole bunch of cultures and ethnic groups all wanting to be their own country, you get a bunch of small, unequal countries. If they couldn't get along as one larger country, what makes you think getting along as part of a union is going to be easier? They may think they're getting a more equal slice of the pie but those slices will get smaller and smaller as the larger, more productive countries get tired of having to share so much of what they earned.

[Rollo]

And the big plus point for the EU - since the foundation of the European Economic Community in the 1950's Europe has never been as peaceful.

I think that this is the main point

The six years prior to 1945 and the events of 26 years previous, saw some of the bloodiest conflict that the continent had ever seen. With the new threat of nuclear weapons, is it little wonder that the various nations wanted to try to put an end to any future conflicts?
The European Coal and Steel Community, the European Atomic Energy Community and maybe the EEC itself, I think were the first attempts at diffusing nationalism within Europe by symbolically trading the resources required to make weaponry.

I think the EU is well on it's way to becoming an irrelevant facade organization, similar to the UN.

What do you mean "on it's way" to becoming an irrelevant facade organization? Wasn't it always a farce, for the reasons which you have stated?

I think there are way too many cultural, ethnic, tribal, and racial differences mixed with a constantly changing leadership for the EU to ever be anything other than it's own self-creating industry.

Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
We had to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
- Sir Humphrey Appleby

[AndySpeed]

It's done a lot for European Water Policy - before the 2000 WFD the legislation was very piecemeal and did not tackle the issue effectively - now it is heading in the right direction.

There are many other areas where EU policy has helped and overall I'm in favour of the EU.

[Malbec]

In addition I am afraid that the EU will and has led to free for all immigration which in the long run will change Europe as we have known it. These are all personal thoughts and I suspect the Euros will be on here with the factual information that we an debate.

You mean immigration within Europe I take it? That was a very deliberate move on the part of the EU.

The fact is that the EU sees the US and China as strong competitors. Both economies have their productivity boosted by migration. In America's case it imports both talent and cheap labour from outside (legally or illegally), in China's case the migration is internal from the poor interior to the developed coast.

For individual European countries this kind of migration simply isn't possible. Most European countries have fairly 'flat' economies where wealth is pretty evenly distributed so internal migration doesn't really work. By opening up migration within the EU though, any economic hotspot within Europe quickly attracts workers from other parts giving it access to cheaper labour and also redistribution of wealth within Europe to let poorer areas grow. Mass migration of Poles to the UK is a great example, they've contributed a lot to the economy particularly in construction and agriculture and they've sent a lot of money home to boost Poland's economic growth. Now the difference between the Polish and British economies isn't as large so migration has started to flow the other way, Poles are going home.

Of course it hasn't been sold this way to the electorate but that is the underlying philosophy behind free internal migration in the EU.