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  1. #8201
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimviii View Post
    nice post but,you didn't explain why Vallejo cant win with r5 car.As you said is several years champion. (...) when you will answer this question,you will see who is the stubborn and stupid.
    I’ve already admitted it: it’s a mystery why Vallejo can’t be fast on a 4wd machine as he was on the 911’s or in the FWD cars he drove before. But that doesn’t make you less stubborn/stupid on this issue, because you’re forgetting a crucial aspect: he won all those rallies mostly against equal machines, as his main competitors were also driving 911’s!

    You may ask why the 911 become so popular on spanish rally scene and the answer is somehow obvious: S2000 and R5 cars were considered too expensive (we tend to forget but they actually were/are!) and the liberal spanish ASN is always looking for cheaper ways to get more drivers involved on their rally series. GT’s, notably the 911, were the perfect solution as their wow factor also worked as a magnet on sponsors and fans.

    I remember the first time I saw them on one of the Galician CERA’s rounds: I was shocked! Besides the 911’s there was also a 360GT and all those beasts simply looked unfit for rally to me! In due time, some become proper rally machines, while others (like the Ferrari) were discarded. But all the drivers that managed to get total control of those close to 400hp fully delivered to the rear axle on tiny, slippery and hazard roads deserved my deep respect.

    That’s why I honestly think it’s so hard for you to understand: you probably never saw one of those beasts properly driven on a rally stage. Otherwise you’d agree their drivers are rally heroes!
    Last edited by Rally Power; 20th March 2017 at 14:20.
    Rally addict since 1982

  2. #8202
    Objective observer stefanvv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    all those beasts simply looked unfit for rally to me!
    Why not? Do You believe there was 4wd in 1911? turbo? I think not. Of course the technology evolves, but there is a simple thing I don't understand - if all rally cars have to be 4wd (I don't min that) and restricted in same way, why they aren't? We have R1 - R5 up to space ships WRCs as they are now, why can't we have R-GT with the deserved technology aspect? What You understand rally is, and I don't?
    "With that car, your brain can actually never keep up"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4IRMYuE1hI

  3. #8203
    Senior Member Mirek's Avatar
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    It was said thousand times. R-GT are usually built from exclusive sportscars. Their market competitors are not Peugeot, Ford or Škoda but brands like Lamborghini or Ferrari. Unless they could create a new top class there is no reason for any GT manufacturer to even think about supporting GTs in rallying. Without manufacturer support the class as a whole is dead just like it was proven already. One or two countries which create specific rules to push them as a top class don't change the whole picture.

    Just reconcile to that. GT brands compete with other GT brands in circuit series while rallying has been a sport for masses.
    Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump

  4. #8204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    I’ve already admitted it: it’s a mystery why Vallejo can’t be fast on a 4wd machine as he was on the 911’s or in the FWD cars he drove before. But that doesn’t make you less stubborn/stupid on this issue, !
    Ok for Vallejo its a ''mistery'' (lolol) for you why he is minutes behind with same machinery as Ares, Garcia etc
    Burgo the vice champion with the unrestricted 911 do you know why he is also minutes from top r5 crews?
    Is it a mystery too?
    So you haven't got problem that Vallejo has been 3 times champion with the unrestricted 911,a driver that with same machinery is 2 minutes behind Garcia Ares etc as we see at last rallies.
    Not only you haven't got any problem,but you applaused him.
    Is it clear now who is the stubborn and stupid?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rally Power View Post
    You may ask why the 911 become so popular on spanish rally scene and the answer is somehow obvious: S2000 and R5 cars were considered too expensive (we tend to forget but they actually were/are!) and the liberal spanish ASN is always looking for cheaper ways to get more drivers involved on their rally series. GT’s, notably the 911, were the perfect solution as their wow factor also worked as a magnet on sponsors and fans.

    I remember the first time I saw them on one of the Galician CERA’s rounds: I was shocked! Besides the 911’s there was also a 360GT and all those beasts simply looked unfit for rally to me! In due time, some become proper rally machines, while others (like the Ferrari) were discarded. But all the drivers that managed to get total control of those close to 400hp fully delivered to the rear axle on tiny, slippery and hazard roads deserved my deep respect.

    That’s why I honestly think it’s so hard for you to understand: you probably never saw one of those beasts properly driven on a rally stage. Otherwise you’d agree their drivers are rally heroes!
    I don't care if they run porsches/Ferraris/whatever,they can run whatever they want,but these cars cant be champions against r5 cars.
    It is not fair to be slower as a driver and become champion,because you have 100+ bhp fater tyres etc.
    Hope I don't have to come back to explain basic things about rallying.

  5. #8205
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    Guys, debate all you like but please don't insult each other; no need for it on here.

    I enjoy reading the debate (personally, i can understand someone being unable to adapt to 4WD as well as 2WD, but maybe it would just be a personal issue with the DS3; sometimes people just aren't well suited to a particular car) but remember that it's subjective and not based on fact, so it's OK to have different opinions.

    If rallying was purely factual, none of us would enjoy it as much!
    aka Rodger Davies

  6. #8206
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    Mirek has right-exclusive manufacturer like Porsche has not interest whatsoever to compete with Peugeot&Ford&Škoda.....so they will never ''give a cent'' for rallying. It is fine for me.....
    What I'm referring to: @dodge33cymru wrote, that somebody can not adapt to different drive. I agree, because I was lucky last year to be a codriver in an old BMW E36 M3, in wet!! After beeing a copilot for almost 20 years in front drive cars, this is something TOTAL different. No way for some amateur rally driver to step from FWD to RWD. It is a retirement after first few bends (retirement due to ''off the road'').
    So, even Vallejo is not an ordinary amateur driver, he might have some problems with 4WD car. Why not??
    And beside that, DS3 R5 is far away from Fiesta or Fabia. I hope dimvii you agree with this....

  7. #8207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ucci View Post
    So, even Vallejo is not an ordinary amateur driver, he might have some problems with 4WD car. Why not??
    4wd is easier than a rwd rear engine car.Except that we are talking about multiple champion,not an amateur.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ucci View Post
    And beside that, DS3 R5 is far away from Fiesta or Fabia. I hope dimvii you agree with this....
    I am not so sure at asphalt if its slower.At Portugal ds3 r5 done 1-2 at last rally,Abbring was leading,Ucci was leading too at last weekend.
    We cant say that they are slower at tarmac.Unreliable yes.
    Burgo was with fabia r5 btw and he was slow too.

  8. #8208
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimviii View Post
    4wd is easier than a rwd rear engine car.Except that we are talking about multiple champion,not an amateur.

    I am not so sure at asphalt if its slower.At Portugal ds3 r5 done 1-2 at last rally,Abbring was leading,Ucci was leading too at last weekend.
    We cant say that they are slower at tarmac.Unreliable yes.
    Burgo was with fabia r5 btw and he was slow too.
    And Vallejo car comes from the same Portuguese Shop as the Portuguese DS3 R5 bi-champion winning car. And, it's a totally new car. Burgo was slower but he had food poison through the weekend. The participation in the rally was even in jeopardy because of that.

    And yes dimvii, I do understand your point regarding the unrestricted Porsches. And like to see them in rally, but when unrestricted they are the most boring thing I ever saw. Drivers just relly on power on the straights.

  9. Likes: dimviii (20th March 2017)
  10. #8209
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    btw Vallejo delivered fiesta evo2

    A Ford Fiesta R5 EVO2 in Vallejo Racing facilities. That It is Iago Caamaño said... #cgr @PeAChapaRacing @RevistaScratch



  11. #8210
    Senior Member Rally Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dimviii View Post
    Ok for Vallejo its a ''mistery'' (lolol) for you why he is minutes behind with same machinery as Ares, Garcia etc
    Burgo the vice champion with the unrestricted 911 do you know why he is also minutes from top r5 crews?
    Is it a mystery too?
    So you haven't got problem that Vallejo has been 3 times champion with the unrestricted 911,a driver that with same machinery is 2 minutes behind Garcia Ares etc as we see at last rallies.
    Not only you haven't got any problem,but you applaused him.
    Is it clear now who is the stubborn and stupid?
    I don't care if they run porsches/Ferraris/whatever,they can run whatever they want,but these cars cant be champions against r5 cars.
    It is not fair to be slower as a driver and become champion,because you have 100+ bhp fater tyres etc.
    Hope I don't have to come back to explain basic things about rallying.
    On those basic things you forgot to mention that 911’s are 150kg heavier than R5’s…

    Honestly I quit trying to make you understand the obvious: there was an overall balance between the 911 and the S2000/R5 on the spanish rally series; in faster or smooth stages the Porsche was ahead while on the sinuous or irregular roads the S2000/R5 were in front. That balance was ruined by 2015 rules (38mm restrictor on 911’s).

    Taking Vallejo or Burgo less convincing exhibitions on current R5’s and intentionally forgetting former Porsche drivers that have already proved can be fast in any type of car, like Ares, Fuster, Pons or even our Portuguese champ JP Fontes and his team mate Carlos Vieira, in order to argue that 911 drivers were slower drivers that could only win due to an alleged technical superiority, reveals on what side of this debate is the stubbornness and/or stupidity.

    Btw, about that alleged superiority here’s the link to 2010 CERA results http://www.ewrc-results.com/season.php?s=2010&nat=8 , the year Hevia in a Fabia S2000 defeated Fuster on his 911 3.6 and another to 2014 CERA results http://www.ewrc-results.com/season.php?s=2014&nat=8 , the only year there was a proper competition between a 911 and a R5. Any impartial viewer can easily conclude that Vallejo's 911 3.8L and Fuster's (yep, the same one) Fiesta R5 were on a close fight all over the year and Fuster’s retirements were the main key for Vallejo winning the series.

    As a rally fan I’ll miss 911’s on my visits to spanish rally’s, but I’ll keep enjoying those and applauding the best drivers no matter what kind of car they’re using, as long they use them on max attack mode!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u60qSLoF8vk
    video: Best of Porsches by D10M
    Last edited by Rally Power; 20th March 2017 at 19:50.
    Rally addict since 1982

  12. Likes: AndyRAC (2nd April 2017)

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