Promoters deal with low attendance in '11??

[Enjun Pullr]

It was good stuff. So was the finish of the Brasil race, and more than a couple of other moments during the year.

And on the rare occasions when the product is good enough...don't you think 2 out of 100 people would buy it if they watched?

[Steve-o]

Again, I agree with you. And the same used to be true in American open wheel racing. While (IMO) the cars were way cooler back then than what we have now, we also used to have world class personalities (and great drivers) like Mario Andretti, Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Alex Zanardi, Juan Montoya, Paul Tracy, Michael Andretti, Al Unser (Sr. and Jr.), A.J. Foyt, et al. Now we have an overhyped bikini model, who's managed to trip over a lonely win once in her career, as the biggest "star" in the sport. I have to agree with Anthonyvop when he says that "the product" is the problem. But within that, there are several factors, and key among them (IMO) is the lack of recognizeable names that are capable of posting brilliant drives. As I bounce around Charlotte, I've probably run across Ryan Briscoe or Will Power at the mall or where ever. But to be honest, even though I recognize them during races, their faces aren't burned into my mind well enough that I would know them away from the track or TV. And since there would be no crowd of people around either, I'm sure that they can lead peaceful lives there. Juan Montoya, Jimmie Johnson, Dale, Jr. or Carl Edwards on the other hand...

Good Post.

It seems to me we have nailed down the issues in this thread: poor racing, low wattage stars, and poor promotion. Am I missing something? I think the masses will come back based on star power, but they wont stick around if the product is poor. And...you can't build stars with poor racing. Otherwise, we have a PR machine that tells us how great 'the overhyped bikini model' is. (love that reference, BTW) So it boils down to product? The Field of Dreams Effect? (if you build it, they will come) I saw some pretty decent racing Saturday night. Vs. drew 400k viewers. We can have all the good racing you can stand, but if no one's watching, who cares.

I will say, as the new guy around here, you guys are pretty insightful. I don't see a lot of the bitching that goes on in other forums. Good posts overall, nice job.

[Steve-o]

... But she dropped back near the end and dive bombed him, taking a well deserved second place in a straight fight. I was amazed; I didn't know she had it in her. Unfortunately I'll probably be drawing Social Security before she does that again.

Let's hope not. The better she does, the better the circuit will do. Like it or not, they have hitched thier wagons to her. She needs a lot more wins and a lot more performances like that.

[Enjun Pullr]

"... the masses will come back based on star power, but they wont stick around if the product is poor".

And that is why the $20M Indy500/ Charlotte 600 philosophy is hollow. Sure, maybe you prop up one race (which needs the least help) by sticking Kyle Bush in a D&R car. But he doesn't win, or continue to draw interest by running mid-pack for a full season.

Improve the product to stage good competition, then promote it like you stole it.

[nigelred5]

The Honda powered racing on-track is as boing as the Honda Odyssey or whatever that you just passed on the highway. Good reliable cars, but boring as all #ell.

They need manufacturer competetion and less ride buying piss poor racers that are good at nothing but wading up 2-3 cars a weekend. International racers were and are fine when they are quality drivers like Power, but they need to drag along a few accomplishments like a GP2 championship or some decent personality. Spec racing with a revolving door of anonymous zombies driving the cars is cr@p.

[Enjun Pullr]

Nigel, I have to admit just now watching the 2005 Homestead race and delighting at the sight of two Hondas blowing up.

Another competing engine is the first step in changing anything. Honda didn't want to be sole supplier in '06, I'd be inclined to believe them now too.

[px400r]

Another competing engine is the first step in changing anything. Honda didn't want to be sole supplier in '06, I'd be inclined to believe them now too.

Then why were they so adamant on a V6 when everyone else (i.e., potential competitors) wanted inline fours?

[Enjun Pullr]

px400r: I think all the answers are in the Gordon Kirby article from April 2010 linked below, which is almost entirely in the own words of HPD's Erik Berkman.

Here Berkman is talking specifically about the 2.8 V6 for ALMS, but the strategy appears to be the same for the next IndyCar 2.4 V6. Honda had no intention of developing a GRE.

"We've been working very closely with the ACO regarding the sports car racing rules," Berkman says. "They've got new rules in 2011 and we've got a production-based V-6 engine that's under development right now that will be out there next year. Think Odyssey, Ridgeline, Pilot, Honda Accord or Acura TL. That family of engines is going to evolve into a full-on race engine that will be in P2 cars from next year."

There hadn't been much written in public about Honda's plans until this article came out, and it explained everything that had been hinted at previously. Most everything that Berkman refers to in the article has already come to pass. There is no reason to suspect his motives, as far as I can read.

ICONIC took what they were offered, and left the regulations open to accept a four cylinder. The chassis is designed to accept one, should a manufacturer step up. That's the only options, other than to also permit continued use of the V8 alongside the V6. Nobody seems interested in that prospect.

Full article:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no231.html

[px400r]

px400r: I think all the answers are in the Gordon Kirby article from April 2010 linked below, which is almost entirely in the own words of HPD's Erik Berkman.

Here Berkman is talking specifically about the 2.8 V6 for ALMS, but the strategy appears to be the same for the next IndyCar 2.4 V6. Honda had no intention of developing a GRE.

"We've been working very closely with the ACO regarding the sports car racing rules," Berkman says. "They've got new rules in 2011 and we've got a production-based V-6 engine that's under development right now that will be out there next year. Think Odyssey, Ridgeline, Pilot, Honda Accord or Acura TL. That family of engines is going to evolve into a full-on race engine that will be in P2 cars from next year."

There hadn't been much written in public about Honda's plans until this article came out, and it explained everything that had been hinted at previously. Most everything that Berkman refers to in the article has already come to pass. There is no reason to suspect his motives, as far as I can read.

ICONIC took what they were offered, and left the regulations open to accept a four cylinder. The chassis is designed to accept one, should a manufacturer step up. That's the only options, other than to also permit continued use of the V8 alongside the V6. Nobody seems interested in that prospect.

Full article:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no231.html

IIRC, the IRL did not want an equivalency formula and from what I've read, there was more interest from the manufacturers on a turbo-4/GRE engine than a V6.

I understand why HPD would want to have both the IRL and ALMS engines from the same basic design, but they must know that their objective would not produce the competition that they supposedly desire.

IMO, HPD needs to at least break even on this program, so their competition will come from sportscars while their profit will come from the IRL. It's the IRL that loses.

[NickFalzone]

My opinion is a bit different from the ones I see above. A lot of folks think that the IRL's on-track product is not interesting to the casual fan, and thus the fanbase keeps shrinking. I think that instead the problem is that it no longer appeals as much to the Hardcore fan. What I see is an on-track product that is actually OK to the casual fan. A lot of races this season have been fairly entertaining if you're flipping the channel and happen to watch for a few minutes. I'd say that the racing in 2010 was, on a superficial level at least, more entertaining than the IRL has been in awhile. The problem though is that there's not much beneath the surface. I'd say that the competition level of the drivers is good, the series has 10-15 really talented OW drivers, and maybe 6-10 that have a legit shot at a win each week. That is pretty decent.

What the series needs though is a more competitive 3rd and 4th team that can compete with the Big-2. Andretti has lot a step, and we need another team additionally to spice things up. It also needs a few more American drivers, and it needs more technical variety (ie engine, chassis, etc.). These are the sorts of things that the hardcore fan WANTS, and not only is not getting, but is deciding to leave the sport because the deeper level of interest is not there. The IRL is worrying about getting the casual fan, but the sport has been shrinking primarily because it has lost interest to the hardcore fans. What it needs to be doing is getting those hardcore fans back. They are still out there and would come back if the technical variety and competitive rivalry came back. Right now what they have is an on-track product that is superficially entertaining, but is lacking when it comes to the hardcore fanbase.