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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinho
    he has taken himself out of at least podium positions 4 times now this year, outside of any car failures.

    Turkey - collided with Webber
    Silverstone - collided with either Lewis or Webber and punctured tyre, hit Sutil on his recovery drive
    Hungary -cocked up the restart and got a drive through
    Spa - made a "mistake" and crashed into Button, outside points before getting drive through and hitting Liuzzi on recovery drive.

    none of those incidents were really to do with driving too fast, but could be argued to indicate poor judgement or impeteousness.
    First of all he didn't really hit Sutil, he was agressive and Sutil had to get out of the way.

    Second he was driving rather on the limit in the incidents with Webber and Button.

    Third, it was Liuzzi who turned onto him in Spa, and this example one really showed you bias against Vettel.

    Impetuous yes, poor judgement no. I reserve that for Webber's Valencia trick, that Vettel's detractors have swept under the carpet and forgot about while targeting Vettel left right and center!

    BTW what was Webber's penalty for destroying Kovy's race?
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGWilko
    In this game you make your luck. Vettel should have known there was not room for two abreast in the corner. Drive with the head, not with your eyes wide shut!
    Sorry, but Vettel never touched with Webber, with who he was going side-by-side into the corner. It was Hamilton, who punctured Vettel's tyre from behind and he had nothing to do about that. Had Vettel backed off and let Webber more clearly through, collision with Hamilton would have been even more likely.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioan
    BTW what was Webber's penalty for destroying Kovy's race?
    ....is a pretty good point. He was surely driving with red mist through his helmet after a terrible start where everything that could go wrong, did.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioan
    First of all he didn't really hit Sutil, he was agressive and Sutil had to get out of the way.

    Second he was driving rather on the limit in the incidents with Webber and Button.

    Third, it was Liuzzi who turned onto him in Spa, and this example one really showed you bias against Vettel.

    Impetuous yes, poor judgement no. I reserve that for Webber's Valencia trick, that Vettel's detractors have swept under the carpet and forgot about while targeting Vettel left right and center!

    BTW what was Webber's penalty for destroying Kovy's race?
    i'm not sweeping anything under the carpet, nor am i a Vettel detractor, i'm quite disappointed that he has failed to put together a championship challenge this year.

    I am talking about what i consider to be Vettels mistakes this year, not Webbers. You disagree where the fault lies in the incidents, thats fair enough, but i place the blame at least half on him in all of the incidents i mentioned, including Liuzzi, which IMO was 50-50 at best. As Vettel was on the outside of a left hander and they were both turning left i fail to see how Liuzzi turned into Vettel. I agree Liuzzi probably should have conceded earlier, but equally Vettel could have left a little more room - by then his race was screwed so he probably didn't care anyway.

    I think he did bang wheels with Sutil at the hairpin at Silverstone, and if he didn't, it was still his error at the 1st corner that landed him down the field.

    I do think Webber was mostly at fault for the Valenicia incident, but it was a mistake, so that ok isn't it - as long as drivers don't do it on purpose hard racing is ok, this is correct isn't it? he arguably should have been pulled up for causing an avoidable incident. I have never stated he shouldn't, nor that i think the stewards are entirely consistent in their application of penalties

    However i do think Webber is driving with a more considered approach than Vettel and the results have shown this and i still think Turkey was mostly down to Vettel too. Vettel really should have converted more of his dominance from qually, in the fastest car, into more wins this year, like Button who you derided so much last year, managed to do when he had the advantage. If Button did it then why can't Vettel? Maybe Button's acheivments were quite impressive after all? nah, couldn't be, right?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jens
    Sorry, but Vettel never touched with Webber, with who he was going side-by-side into the corner. It was Hamilton, who punctured Vettel's tyre from behind and he had nothing to do about that. Had Vettel backed off and let Webber more clearly through, collision with Hamilton would have been even more likely.
    i disagree, he'd lost the advantage of the inside line to Webber and was losing it to Hamilton. He tried to turn in to save as much as possible when Hamilton was alreay there. He should have stayed wider or backed off a little to save a position instead of trying to make one that wasn't there. as a result he got a puncture.

    Like i said before, any one of these incidents in isolation could be considered a minor mistake or even bad luck, but he has made a number of mistakes IMO which are beginning to show a pattern of what i consider to be impeteousness and poor judgement. If he can learn from them and curb that a little, like Hamilton did after his erratic first couple of seasons then i think he will become a much better driver. at the moment i consider him very very fast, but inconsistent in races.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinho
    Like i said before, any one of these incidents in isolation could be considered a minor mistake or even bad luck, but he has made a number of mistakes IMO which are beginning to show a pattern of what i consider to be impeteousness and poor judgement. If he can learn from them and curb that a little, like Hamilton did after his erratic first couple of seasons then i think he will become a much better driver. at the moment i consider him very very fast, but inconsistent in races.
    Yep, just what I was thinking. Vettel this year is what Hamilton was in 2007 and 2008, fast, but without the racecraft and experience.

    Yes, Hammy won it in 2008 but I think everyone can agree that he's a much superior driver than the one we saw become champion.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark
    Yep, just what I was thinking. Vettel this year is what Hamilton was in 2007 and 2008, fast, but without the racecraft and experience.

    Yes, Hammy won it in 2008 but I think everyone can agree that he's a much superior driver than the one we saw become champion.
    IMO in 2008 Lewis still showed drives that Vettel is yet to produce. Actually, the best win of Vettel is IMO his first.
    But yes, now Lewis is much better driver and seems favorite to win the championship, but I'd be very happy if Webber wins it. It will be heartwarming...
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jens
    Sorry, but Vettel never touched with Webber, with who he was going side-by-side into the corner. It was Hamilton, who punctured Vettel's tyre from behind and he had nothing to do about that. Had Vettel backed off and let Webber more clearly through, collision with Hamilton would have been even more likely.
    Indeed, and I did not suggest it was Webber.

    My point still stands that the crash kid should have been circumspect and realised that two abreast in that corner was not possible. He should have slotted in behind Mark and Lewis. Losing 2 places is better than driving with three wheels on your wagon for the most part of lap one isn't it?
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  9. #29
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    Itīs gona be easy now when MacLaren has a car with traction control. From now on they are the one to beat. Traction out of turns was their weak point earlier, no moore.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia 01
    Itīs gona be easy now when MacLaren has a car with traction control. From now on they are the one to beat. Traction out of turns was their weak point earlier, no moore.
    None of the teams have traction control.

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