My thoughts about different classes

[OldF]

I don’t know if this is a necessary thread but I decided to start it anyway. All this is for WRC, regional championships and national championships.

N4:
Giving more freedom just for the purpose of getting them (N4) closer to the performance of S2000 cars only will increase the price and there will be fever drivers in the N4 group. N4 as it is now, is the cheapest (full spec car about 140 000 €) way for a driver to drive a 4-wheel car. It’s not a competition car but anyway.

If there’s a need for getting the N4 cars (Mitsubishi & Subaru to keep them happy) closer to the S2000 cars, there should be a new class called N4+ or whatever. In this class for example the suspension and the brakes parts would be similar to the parts of a S2000 and if necessary also the engine parts as pistons and connecting rods etc. A S2000 has about 280 hp (and some maybe even more) and the min. weight is 1200 kg, they have a weight to power ratio of 4,29 kg / hp. If a N4 with the 33 mm restrictor have about 310 hp the weight to power ratio (counting with a weight of 1350 kg) is about the same 4,35 kg / hp. But even with these upgrades the price of a N4 wouldn’t be even close to a piece of a S2000 (Janne Tuohino paid for his Ford Fiesta S2000 280 000€).

S2000:
The homologation of S2000 cars beyond 2011 should be allowed. These cars have a nice sound and are spectacular to watch, at least on gravel (as seen by the links Mirek posted in the “Rally d´Italia Sardegna” thread). These also would be a “middle” class between N4 and the new WRC1.6T, both in performance (hopefully) and price aspect.

R1, R2, R3; R3T and R3D:
These are IMO all good classes, especially R2. There already three makes: Citroen, Ford and Renault. R2, and these cars are real competition car at a quite reasonable price (40 000 – 50 000 €) and is good start for a junior to start his/her rally career.

The R3 is class is maybe little to expensive, Renault Clio about 60 000-70 000 € (http://www.renault-sport.com/en/rall...io_r3_maxi.php) and a Honda Civic 95 000€ (http://www.jasmotorsport.com/Pdf/188.pdf ).

R1 is the class being close to a road car and IMO is the cheapest way to start a rally career with (as Mikko Pajunen is doing in the British rally championship (http://translate.google.com/translat...83&sl=fi&tl=en).

There are not many cars in the R3T and R3D classes but maybe in the R3T class there will be more cars when the WRC 1.6T starts.

And then finally WRC 1.6T:
Most of the drivers are happy that it’s going to be a turbo engine. A turbo engine has of course more torque compared to a NA engine. The torque of the 1.6T would with a boost of 2,5 bar would be about 550 Nm (it’s just my guessing) and with a 33 mm restrictor and 2,5 bar boost, the power could be little higher compared to a N4 with a 33 mm restrictor. IMO it should be sound and power wise better with a 35 mm restrictor and 2 bar boost that would give the engine about 480 Nm torque (again just my guessing), which is a lot more compared to a S2000 that have about 250 Nm, and the power peak would be at quite high revs. With lower boost and bigger restrictor I think we could have quite good sounding engines.

If the direct injection will increase the price by 40% of a S2000 car (which I don’t understand why), the price of a WRC 1.6T cars would be nearly 400 000 €.

If it’s true what I’m have read on this forum that the gearbox will be hydraulic, will of course increase the price of 1.6T of cars but lets hope it doesn’t have an active centre diff which will increase the price of the gearboxes to the same as in WRC today (about 100 000 €). This price also depends if these gearboxes are design / made for each team or has the same format as in S2000, three manufacturers to choose from. With these assumptions (compared to the price of a gearbox of a S20000 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...12634-p-3.html) the price of a WRC 1.6T car would be 280 0000 * 1,4 –25 000 + 100 000 = 467 000 €.

These where my thoughts about the different classes, what’s yours?

[Francis44]

Those are some valid points, still I think for a young driver to show himself in the R classes just dont work.

In many national championships you just dont see drivers investing on R classes, and I have a really hard time understanding why, although I suspect this happens because media just wont care about those cars and therefore sponsors have a really hard time funding those small cars seeing they wont see their brand featured on a newspaper picture. This is really frustrating, and I suspect some of us have the tallent to be good drivers but we just aint going to have the oppurtunity to even seat our as*** in a rally car.

Regarding top classes I think those teams moan about the prices too much, but for what they get in return (publicity wise) it's totally worth. If you want to win World Championships you surely will have to spend money, and in all honesty I think a 500.000 euros car for a top official team is duable, we dont feel the impact but as soon as the economy picks up they will totally look back at the profit they can make on selling cars if they performe well on Motorsport.

Then you have the problem with cars used for official uses, no matter how cheap they should be, official teams will find a way to inflate cars prices, look at the S2000, they should have been way cheaper but now you see them selling those for 300.000 + euros.

[bluuford]

I think you should not worry too much about exposure 2WD cars get. Its quite proportional to the amount of money they invest compared to top 4WD cars.

Well,, when Tuohino bought his car for 280 000EUR then it is not that bad. It is a new and top car.

The thing I cannot understand is why those S1600 cars are not banned from JWRC? Suzuki Sfift S1600 costs something like 100 000EUR and I found one Clio that costs 120 000EUR and theirs maintenance is quite expensive. And they are competing with the cars that cost 40 000EUR up to 60 000 EUR. If all the cars in JWRC are with R2 and R3 cars, then it would be more equal and more affordable and you can get some exposure as well.

[Tomi]

I don’t know if this is a necessary thread but I decided to start it anyway. All this is for WRC, regional championships and national championships.

N4:
Giving more freedom just for the purpose of getting them (N4) closer to the performance of S2000 cars only will increase the price and there will be fever drivers in the N4 group. N4 as it is now, is the cheapest (full spec car about 140 000 €) way for a driver to drive a 4-wheel car. It’s not a competition car but anyway.

If there’s a need for getting the N4 cars (Mitsubishi & Subaru to keep them happy) closer to the S2000 cars, there should be a new class called N4+ or whatever. In this class for example the suspension and the brakes parts would be similar to the parts of a S2000 and if necessary also the engine parts as pistons and connecting rods etc. A S2000 has about 280 hp (and some maybe even more) and the min. weight is 1200 kg, they have a weight to power ratio of 4,29 kg / hp. If a N4 with the 33 mm restrictor have about 310 hp the weight to power ratio (counting with a weight of 1350 kg) is about the same 4,35 kg / hp. But even with these upgrades the price of a N4 wouldn’t be even close to a piece of a S2000 (Janne Tuohino paid for his Ford Fiesta S2000 280 000€).

In my opinion its not about to make subaru or mitsu happy, its more about to make an car that is relatively cheap to use €/km, not what it cost when buy, I think by better adjustments for the brakes and bigger disks + 50kg weight off already changes the way how to drive those, closer to the coming 1.6T, the point is to get much km as possible to reasonable price for young drivers not to make someone happy.

[Macd]

Am I the only one wondering why people are referring to 140,000 € cars as cheap? :S:S

[urabus-denoS2000]

I though that was the point , because realistically GrN could be at 60-80.000 (which still isnt cheap )

[skarderud]

i cant understand why the n4 class just could be a "sheap" class? just cut the costs, as a standard car with rollcage, safetystuff, better suspension and a ecu uppgrade? then you can have a nice car for around 60k euros!
good for young talents!

[serial jeff]

i cant understand why the n4 class just could be a "sheap" class? just cut the costs, as a standard car with rollcage, safetystuff, better suspension and a ecu uppgrade? then you can have a nice car for around 60k euros!
good for young talents!

Absolutely. Tune the ECU, tear out the interior, and add a cage. Maybe not even a better suspension... back in the early 2000s, the standard suspension of the evo and wrx sti would be adequate to rally in, IMO. Though from what I've read, the STi has gone soft in the last couple years, but I don't know anything firsthand about that.

[OldF]

Am I the only one wondering why people are referring to 140,000 € cars as cheap? :S:S

You’re right, 140.000 € is lot of money.

I cant understand why the n4 class just could be a "sheap" class? just cut the costs, as a standard car with rollcage, safetystuff, better suspension and a ecu uppgrade? then you can have a nice car for around 60k euros!
good for young talents!

The basic model Subaru (http://www.tommimakinenracing.fi/tmr-offers2010.jpg) from Tommi Mäkinen Racing costs 88.000 € and it’s close to a car you’re talking about. I don’t know if this basic model includes an ecu upgrade. The full spec costs 138.000 € so the price range is quite big. Then you buy by the thickness of your wallet. Maybe the prices for a same spec car also vary in different countries. What surprised me is that it has “only” 290 hp. I thought the power would above 300 hp with a 33 mm restrictor.

The thing I cannot understand is why those S1600 cars are not banned from JWRC? Suzuki Sfift S1600 costs something like 100 000EUR and I found one Clio that costs 120 000EUR and theirs maintenance is quite expensive. And they are competing with the cars that cost 40 000EUR up to 60 000 EUR. If all the cars in JWRC are with R2 and R3 cars, then it would be more equal and more affordable and you can get some exposure as well.

I totally agree with you. The S1600 cars are too expensive for JWRC. BTW, I remember reading of prices about 180.000 € but that was few years ago.

In my opinion its not about to make subaru or mitsu happy, its more about to make an car that is relatively cheap to use €/km, not what it cost when buy, I think by better adjustments for the brakes and bigger disks + 50kg weight off already changes the way how to drive those, closer to the coming 1.6T, the point is to get much km as possible to reasonable price for young drivers not to make someone happy.

Maybe I choosed the wrong word. What I meant if Mitsubishi and Subaru don’t are interested in group N, we don’t have these “cheap” 4-wheel drive cars.

[Rally Power]

Somehow this topic it’s linked with the one dedicated to national series future, but answering to Oldf suggestion it’s useful to think over the rally classes, especially those directed to top national competitors.

In FIA Groupe R regulations, proposed to replace the old appendix J classes, there’s obviously a vacant space for 4wd cars, the R4 class, that simply wasn´t filled because European manufacturers doesn’t show interest to cope Gr. R obligation to produce 2.500 road cars in order to homologate a rally car!

Knowing that only Mitsubishi and Subaru would produce 2.500 4wd special cars, FIA introduced the S2000 class, allowing a larger number of manufacturers to easily homologate 4wd rally cars for national and regional use, alongside WRC cars reserved to world championship.

The S2000 concept proved right, even with rising costs rapidly exploding the proposed limit of € 170.000,00 per car, and a reasonable number of exciting cars were homologated, but even so FIA decided to stop it with the introduction of 1.6tWRC.

This precipitated decision to ban S2000 could be related to the WRC/IRC rivalry, but it will certainly affect a large number of national series, because in a near future top teams and drivers will be forced to use ultra expensive 1.6tWRC cars, or, in alternative, be limited to a one make Gr. N (as with Ralliart disappearance, most likely only Subaru will keep producing competitive N4 cars).

So, even applauding 1.6tWRC introduction at the world championship, we should be apprehensive with these limited options for national competitors and start to put some pressure over FIA in order to find a fast solution.

Maybe an answer could be resurrecting the “WRC light” concept, in order to create a 1.6tWRC B class, with slight modified engines, mechanical transmission and standard suspensions, on a € 200.000,00 rigid limit.