Mobile phones & tablets thread

[CaptainRaiden]

Some of us don't see it as a competition full stop. I see it as two very nice tablets both with positives and negatives that appeal to different people. I'm sure both will sell very well.

Whether you like to believe so or not, products from rival companies will always be in competition with each other, full stop.

[Malbec]

Just had an email from Gizmodo with the review of the Nokia Lumia 920 and its not something Daniel would agree with in its entirety.

Lumia 920 Review: Just Too Damn Heavy

That's quite a chunk to have in your pocket I have to say. Then again if I needed to smash a muggers head in, I think I'd wish I had the Nokia in my pocket rather than slapping them with an iPhone.

So instead of being stupendously light its just very light...

Still it doesn't seem to be the killer phone it was meant to be which is the disappointing bit, especially in view of the camera performance.

[Malbec]

Still don't understand why Apple keeps holding back on such key features, and can still justify their ridiculous price premium.

Apple cannot as a brand offer the same product for the same money as non-premium competitors. It HAS to charge more. Again this boils back down to maintaining premium brand status. Offering the product for the price its competitors charge would have long term negative implications for the Apple brand.

This isn't about features anymore...

[Dave B]

Apple cannot as a brand offer the same product for the same money as non-premium competitors. It HAS to charge more. Again this boils back down to maintaining premium brand status. Offering the product for the price its competitors charge would have long term negative implications for the Apple brand.

This isn't about features anymore...

That's the strangest thing. A few years back Apple products were superior in almost every respect to their rivals and they could justify the premium price. Then a tiny handful of devices started to match them both for specs and overall experience, but Apple still had enough cachet to justify the difference.

But now? The Nexus massively undercuts the iPad, there are handsets for literally half the price of an iPhone which match it's performance (the Nexus 4 is a simply staggering price point), and consumers are quickly understanding that there's Apples are not the only fruit. I simply can't see Apple maintaining anything like their current market share without either a radical refresh of their hardware and OS, or an acceptance that they have to cut prices and margins.

Amazon and Google are moving towards the razorblade pricing structure: sell the devices at a tiny profit but make your money down the line on purchases and advertising. I'd be surprised if either of them make more than $10 on the sale of a Kindle or Nexus tablet, but they're capturing market share at a phenomenal rate.

[Malbec]

That's the strangest thing. A few years back Apple products were superior in almost every respect to their rivals and they could justify the premium price. Then a tiny handful of devices started to match them both for specs and overall experience, but Apple still had enough cachet to justify the difference.

It goes further than that IMO, you also got more for your money then. I bought a gen 2 iPod which came beautifully packed (so much so I felt almost guilty opening up the vacuum packed earplugs etc) with a case and a dock as part of the price. It felt you were buying something from NASA, not an MP3 player. Get one now and all thats included is a powerpack and earplugs, all cheaply packed. Everything else is of course extra.

I simply can't see Apple maintaining anything like their current market share without either a radical refresh of their hardware and OS, or an acceptance that they have to cut prices and margins.

Amazon and Google are moving towards the razorblade pricing structure: sell the devices at a tiny profit but make your money down the line on purchases and advertising. I'd be surprised if either of them make more than $10 on the sale of a Kindle or Nexus tablet, but they're capturing market share at a phenomenal rate.

Apple don't need marketshare, they need profitability which they have in spades. I'd argue that losing significant marketshare for them has its plus sides as the brand then becomes less ubiquitous and therefore gains exclusivity.

Everything you've said about Apple could be said about BMW offering a similar product to non-premium rivals at a significant premium at both initial purchase and servicing yet they get away with it. Once you get to become a premium brand market psychology changes completely, all in favour of the seller.

Of their rivals Amazon are the only ones who are emulating the same businessmodel and yet they can't charge a premium for their hardware for the reasons you described. Google don't make hardware and the phone manufacturers don't make money on the software or downloaded content. Only Apple and Amazon are involved at every step of the process to extract profit.

Unless Apple seriously mismanage their brand (like making a series of Maps-like failures) they'll find it very difficult to lose their premium status and thus their profitability if other consumer goods are a reliable indicator.

[Mark]

Can I say - again - that I hate Apple shops; sorry "Apple Retail Stores"

I was in buying a peripheral at the weekend. Now in a normal shop you'd go and pick an item off the shelf, take it to the checkout, maybe wait in a queue, then pay for your goods, they're bagged and you're away.

Not so in an Apple shop - there's no checkouts, only the blue shirts walking around with iPhones with credit card things on them. So you've got your peripheral you have to stop a blue shirt, you try catching their eye, nope, doesn't work. Then it's "Excuse me?!" "Sorry I'm with two other customers" .. "Excuse me?!" .. ignored. Until you eventually find someone who isn't endlessly explaining to an elderly couple why an iPad needs "wifi", who can actually take your money off you.

[CaptainRaiden]

I'm aware in a business sense these companies are in competition with one another. They wouldn't be suing each other if they were not would they? This isn't some revelation you've brought to my attention and is basic economics. My point is not every consumer gives a toss about certain features one has over the other and vice versa.

But a lot of them do, and the comparison link was for their benefit. If you're not interested in looking at comparisons or pros and cons of different products in competition, just ignore such posts in the future. Nobody is forcing you, personally, to buy a tablet you don't want, neither did I quote you specifically, so why take exception? This thread doesn't revolve around you, henners. It seems you can't stand Apple being criticized even in the slightest and jump to defend it hammer and tongs. There will always be criticisms of every product. Learn to let it go.

Its clear there is a market for people like yourself on a budget and who want the best spec on paper for their money and there are others who buy what they like. I'm sure you like a product also for personal reasons. If they have to pay a bit more and are happy with their purchase then that shouldn't matter.

Let me get this straight. Are you assuming that I don't buy products that I like, but rather products that fit my budget and get the biggest bang for buck? Are you somehow implying that I like Apple products, but since I can't afford them, choose to criticize them? If yes, that is a rather arrogant, simplistic and elitist point of view and you couldn't be more wrong. To be very clear, not one Apple product ever has interested me even one iota. I've had ample time to play with iMacs and Macbooks and iPhones, and never desired any one of them, not even the first ever iPhone. Not saying they are not good products, but for someone who knows what is under the hood of their electronic product, they don't appeal to me.

When I was in the market to buy a laptop two years ago, I could have very well bought a Macbook, but instead bought a Dell laptop with superior hardware and a 42 inch LG TV with the same amount of money. Was the best purchase decision I ever made. So, no, I buy what I like. It just happens to be that what I like are non-Apple products. I don't care about aesthetics or "feel" or let simplistically dumb marketing ads sway my opinion. I care about performance and have even built gaming monster PCs for as much as $2000 in the past.

The Nexus has a better quality screen than the iPad Mini and the review I posted also says this, fair enough. The deal breaker for me is the OS. You state that the OS on the Nexus is superior and that's great, but for me I would go with the opposite. I would prefer the OS on the iPad and be happy in the knowledge that I personally think its better based on what I like. You can't argue with that and any amount of technical stats and guff is not going to make me agree with you. Some people buy what they like, and not based on peer pressure because others disagree.

But, but, I am not trying to have you agree with me. I could actually give a flying rat's ass about what tablet you choose to buy. If you think the iOS is a better OS, then good for you, even if the actual tech experts globally think otherwise. Apple has dropped the ball with their maps, which is one of the most important features of a mobile device, and that has hurt the reputation of their OS quite a bit. At the same time it's been criticized for being an aging OS with limited features and having a walled garden feel. This is just not me talking, but it is the universal opinion of almost every tech expert. Sales growth of Android seems to support this fact. You seem to be quite adamant to not recognize this fact.

If the Apple OS is better in your opinion, then good for you. You should be happy with your purchase and not try to defend it. What people say on message boards shouldn't affect how you feel about your purchase, and you shouldn't take Apple criticisms personally, as it seems every time somebody does so, you are quick to jump to try and defend them with the same repetitive rhetoric.

[CaptainRaiden]

What the what...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d5xkULjc50

[Dave B]

Can I say - again - that I hate Apple shops; sorry "Apple Retail Stores"

I was in buying a peripheral at the weekend. Now in a normal shop you'd go and pick an item off the shelf, take it to the checkout, maybe wait in a queue, then pay for your goods, they're bagged and you're away.

Not so in an Apple shop - there's no checkouts, only the blue shirts walking around with iPhones with credit card things on them. So you've got your peripheral you have to stop a blue shirt, you try catching their eye, nope, doesn't work. Then it's "Excuse me?!" "Sorry I'm with two other customers" .. "Excuse me?!" .. ignored. Until you eventually find someone who isn't endlessly explaining to an elderly couple why an iPad needs "wifi", who can actually take your money off you.

I wonder if that was the influence of the now departed idiot from Dixons who thought that shedding staff and paying lower wages would result in better service. Maybe now he's gone his changes can be reversed.

I've only ever set foot in an Apple store once, to browse, and I found the experience quite good: polite attentive staff who introduced themselves but then left me alone when I said I was just looking. Normally I hear good things about their service.

[CaptainRaiden]

I responded because this is a discussion forum and because I thought I had something to add. I don't defend Apple on everything and if I did then I would buy more of their products. As far as phones go I like their products more than anything else. Laptops, desktops I purchase other things. The repetition of the same points on this thread are coming from both of us it seems. I responded to your post even though the questions you asked have had answers given many times in the past to which you have dismissed.

No.

No I wasn't implying that. A sentence right in the middle of the part you quoted is key to this.

I have no problem with that opinion whatsoever. I don't think I need to answer this part now that is cleared up.

Fair enough.

My experience with Dell is very different as I have said in the past. Its been back to be repaired twice in 11 months and has put me off ever buying anything Dell ever again. My next laptop will be a PC but it won't be a pile of shyte hopefully.

Dell laptops seem to be producing such problems randomly. For example, my Dell hasn't sprung one single problem in the last two years. The battery also surprisingly lasts between 2 to 2.5 hours regularly. But my sister bought a Dell and had a battery problem within the first 21 days, which they replaced of course. Then again, a friend who bought a Macbook at the same time as I bought my Dell, has gone to the Apple store three times to get it repaired or replaced.

Their own maps do not work as well as the Google predecessor, but there are free alternatives like Nav Free for sat nav software and google maps still work in the browser. The Maps thing didn't really have any effect on my experience whatsoever.

What you are suggesting henners are workarounds. Workarounds for an epic fail product from a premium brand, which should not happen, especially if you're paying close to freaking $800 for their devices. It took Google 7 years of constant mule like work to perfect their Maps app. Can Apple perfect their product in half that time? I doubt it. Maybe it didn't affect you, but for a lot of daily commuters, it's a deal breaker. It's a hilarious failure, and such unfinished product by a premium brand like Apple is simply unacceptable, and you know that, henners. How can you justify this catastrophe by Apple is beyond me. I would be on Google's case pretty hard if they ever made any such blunder.

It may well be an aging OS but its still a very good OS. Sales growth of Android is not just due to them being better than Apple, it has a lot to do with affordability with handset being as cheap as 40 quid. More are sold because not only are multiple manufacturers producing handsets with the Android OS, but they cover a broad range of pricing. Apple are a sole manufacturer competing against a group of market players. They don't have to produce products to be affordable to every man and by playing the market with a premium product, means they have remained popular.

While that may have been true in the past, not any more so, as I have proven with links from various tech magazines, Android trumps Apple's latest offering in every department. Plus, flagship smartphones from various manufacturers have piled up and have given their own little boost to Android. Of course, cheaper phones also helped. But the growth really has been on the top end. For example, the current market share for the iPhone 5 and Galaxy S3 is 56%-44%. And I expected the iPhone 5 to comfortably be ahead, and not by such a small margin.

I am very happy with my purchase but can't for the life of me understand how you thing you can tell me I shouldn't defend it. I don't take Apple criticisms personally at all, but enjoy learning why they are disliked so much. Please don't be under the false impression that what I read you writing here has any impact on how I feel about my purchase. I don't sit here looking at my iPhone crying and wishing I had saved a couple of hundred quid and bought the S3 instead. I do think by suggesting I am defending them with the same 'repetitive rhetoric' is rather cheeky considering you yourself are making the same points over and over and claiming not to have been given any answers.

Sometimes it's like you're incapable of understanding or better yet, accepting the fact that there is a big percentage of users who dislike Apple products. You keep on repeating the same rhetoric like "People will buy what they like, Apple make premium products, the interface is smooth, I don't feel the hardware is inadequate", blah de blah, about a 1000 times already. Yes, in your opinion Apple is the best thing since sliced bread, but learn to accept others may not share the same opinion, as I have already proven with various different links. It's nauseating.

If you didn't give a 'rats ass' what phone or tablet others buy, then the fact Apple charge more wouldn't even be on your radar.

Again, a simplistic way of looking at things. As a future, and I might add forced, customer of an Apple product, it pisses me off to no end that I would have to overpay for a product. Did I tell you that you made the wrong choice when you bought your iPhone 5? No, so then what's the reasoning behind your statement above, may I ask?