JPM

[markabilly]

If you exclude the 2000 Indy 500!

actually i was referring to nascar and big speedway tracks they run on (and Andretti only ran a few of those, and scored the Daytona 500.

mac 'fired" him after they learned that he had done a deal for driving nascar

and what is forgotten, is that kimi never dominated JPM as a team mate, and JPM dominanted RS, although after JPM ended up in ronnie d's doghouse, he was not having some good results compared to kimi the last few races, suspicion being that JPM was headed for greener pastures where the pay was better and the racing more fun....

[Tazio]

actually i was referring to nascar and big speedway tracks they run on (and Andretti only ran a few of those, and scored the Daytona 500.

mac 'fired" him after they learned that he had done a deal for driving nascar

and what is forgotten, is that kimi never dominated JPM as a team mate, and JPM dominanted RS, although after JPM ended up in ronnie d's doghouse, he was not having some good results compared to kimi the last few races, suspicion being that JPM was headed for greener pastures where the pay was better and the racing more fun....

Thanks for clearing that up for me.
There is another thread where a certain member who I believe once had his image
chiseled out of White Carrera Marble in the Vatican Rotunda,
who argues that Mike had virtually no real competition between Senna, and Alonso,
and only showed up to receive his trophy’s while competing against these really weak performers
like Kimi JPM, DC, Ralf, Mika, Jacques, and others. Every one of these guys in their prime were excellent racers,
yet only two secured a WDC in full careers while Mike collected a paltry seven.

[wedge]

a poor emulation.

Clark, Gurney and Andretti won, consistently.......Gurney never won a WDC but gave Clark a run for his money in a few races, but still won or lead everywhere he raced.

Andretti makes even Clark look a distant second, when it comes to competing in different forms of racing, be it dirt tracks, stock cars as in Daytona 500 1967 victory--JPM has never won a major speedway race and Clark never tried, but Andretti showed up and took it, a wdc title (none for JPM despite plenty of opportunities),

Clark was Euro-centric. Clark did Indy because of Chapman's ambitions and the money. He only did one NASCAR race at Rockingham, IIRC.

Andretti won WDC in the dominant car cf. JPM/Williams were up against Ferrari/Schumi in 2003 and was up against Kimi & Alonso in 2005.

Dunno what it was like in Andretti's or Gurney's days but DEI Ganassi are hardly a team that can win week in week out.

mac 'fired" him after they learned that he had done a deal for driving nascar

No it wasn't. Ron knew JPM wanted to leave. JPM was talking to different teams but because he was too much of a pain in the ass nobody in F1 wanted him and instead called up Chip Ganassi.

[markabilly]

Face it wedge, someone like JPM should not be mentioned in the same breath as Clark, Gurney and Andretti

[Colin_Harvey]

Andretti makes even Clark look a distant second, when it comes to competing in different forms of racing, be it dirt tracks, stock cars as in Daytona 500 1967 victory

I'd disagree with you there and say that both were equally versatile. Whilst it's true that Clark didn't take much of an interest in dirt tracks or stock cars, the fact is that they are American forms of motor racing and so would appeal less to a driver based in Europe.

Clark, instead, raced in rally events and hill climbs and was of course British Touring Car champion in 1964. Along with F1, Indycars, Le Mans...

So equally versatile. Although Clark the better driver overall.

[wedge]

Face it wedge, someone like JPM should not be mentioned in the same breath as Clark, Gurney and Andretti

That's your opinion that I disagree with and vice versa

[Roamy]

Anyone that wins more than one F1 race qualifies for mention anywhere. F1 is that tough!! However back to JPM. One of the problems with NASCAR is that you can't horse the car to the front. You either have the car or you don't - On road courses in NASCAR a driver has a chance to make up for the car but even that is getting tougher cause the young ones are now paying more attention. True the seats are far more comfortable in NASCAR so you don't have to live at the gym but JPM has it and has proven it!!

[markabilly]

I'd disagree with you there and say that both were equally versatile. Whilst it's true that Clark didn't take much of an interest in dirt tracks or stock cars, the fact is that they are American forms of motor racing and so would appeal less to a driver based in Europe.

Clark, instead, raced in rally events and hill climbs and was of course British Touring Car champion in 1964. Along with F1, Indycars, Le Mans...

So equally versatile. Although Clark the better driver overall.

No way was Clark "close to equally versatile. Although Clark the better driver overall", Nope, while I think Clark and Stewart were the very last of the truly great pure driving talents in F1 to consistently demonstrate those skills, when it comes to who the better driver was in different forms of racing, indeed even in the different forms of f1, over the time period from 1967 to 1990, there is no other driver close.

dirt tracking and the big ovals are completely different and Clark never proved himself in either. Sad though because in terms of sheer speed, it is not clear who was the faster driver, as in 1965 andretti was a rookie, but in 1966 and 1967 in the two later races where Andretti and clark raced together, Andretti took pole in a "brawner" over Clark and others.

One can say, in theory and opinion, Clark this or that, but as to actually demonstrating it on a track, only Andretti is there in a class all by himself. Even in the different forms of f1 as it advanced for some 14 years (yep 14 years) for andretti, who raced f1 as though it were merely a second, lesser series than his primary interests which was racing in the usa........

Even Colin Chapman would say that Andretti had very special skills over any other driver who drove for him, when it came to setting up a car whereas Clark would just drive the car. Probably more than anyone else, he turned the very back of the pack Lotus when he started with the team in 1976 in to a car that would lap the entire field by the last race of the season--and the car that dominated in 1977 and 1978, did so thanks to his skills, in a time before the sheer dominance of aero and data acquisition and engineers with wind tunnels......

indeed, perhaps he better than anyone else, was in the position to judge the older forms of non-wing competition with the later forms...and he made it clear that the requirements of driving skill and feel for the car were rapidly decreasing into what he referred to go karts requiring toggle switch driving or point and squirt, with the car and engineering becoming overall dominant.

I heard him say in 1981 or so in a tv interview, during his year driving the alfa, when asked about the "supreme skills" to race f1, he said that it required far more skill and talent to race competitively at Indy in 1967 than to race f1 in 1981......he should know better than any

JPM is a non qualifier for consideration in the class of Clark, Gurney or Andretti.....

[wedge]

No way was Clark "close to equally versatile. Although Clark the better driver overall", Nope, while I think Clark and Stewart were the very last of the truly great pure driving talents in F1 to consistently demonstrate those skills, when it comes to who the better driver was in different forms of racing, indeed even in the different forms of f1, over the time period from 1967 to 1990, there is no other driver close.

dirt tracking and the big ovals are completely different and Clark never proved himself in either. Sad though because in terms of sheer speed, it is not clear who was the faster driver, as in 1965 andretti was a rookie, but in 1966 and 1967 in the two later races where Andretti and clark raced together, Andretti took pole in a "brawner" over Clark and others.

Andretti and Clark had different upbringings.

Had Clark been born in the USA then undoubtedly he would've digged the oval racing scene and had Andretti family emigrated to England he probably would've done rallying and touring cars.

I heard him say in 1981 or so in a tv interview, during his year driving the alfa, when asked about the "supreme skills" to race f1, he said that it required far more skill and talent to race competitively at Indy in 1967 than to race f1 in 1981......he should know better than any

Pretty much everyone was saying something similar in 1981. Gilles said he hated those cars. It had the equivalence to TC today, drive flat out and no feel from the car except your spine cracking due to the rock hard suspension settings for maximising ground effects.

JPM is a non qualifier for consideration in the class of Clark, Gurney or Andretti.....

Considering he won in CART (in its prime), won in F1 (ability to beat Schumi in a straight fight which is something special to have on CV) and with limited oval racing experience can run in the top 10 week in week out in a non-JGR/Hendrick/Roush machine in NASCAR, JPM is hardly in the same league as Robby Gordon is he?

[markabilly]

Considering he won in CART (in its prime), won in F1 (ability to beat Schumi in a straight fight which is something special to have on CV) and with limited oval racing experience can run in the top 10 week in week out in a non-JGR/Hendrick/Roush machine in NASCAR, JPM is hardly in the same league as Robby Gordon is he?

You are right, he is not in the same league with Robbie, Robbie is better

a few races does not a champion make

as to limited experience, jPM has spent well over three years running almost every weekend in Nascar races........and he usually manages to run at times in the top ten....but most Nascar drivers can say the same thing, thanks to pit stops and such.

finishes is a whole different matter

example: 2007 51 starts, one win on a road course...29th place finish in points

now running the earnhardt ganassi team, not a slouch team at all

just like when he ran cart, he was with a team where the driver should be winning, except he is not

andretti ran only a few races in nascar, had only one victory, the Daytona 500