Get the damm chassis right

[Jag_Warrior]

Hoop, can you do a mini compare & contrast on the IRL car and the most recent GP2 car? Not that I'm suggesting that the GP2 car is THE answer. But as I've been trying to catch up on GP2 races to make some room on Mr. Tivo, at least on road courses, it seems like they've gotten something right with the GP2 formula. Or maybe it's the drivers, or the fact that they don't run for fuel mileage or that they have very few yellows/safety periods. I don't know. But since both cars are made by Dallara, I just wondered about the two.

This is a decent summary that I found of the GP2 model:

The feeder series founded in 2005 by F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone and Renault chief Flavio Briatore runs identical Dallara chassis powered by 580hp 4-liter Renault V8s shared across the board by all 13 two-car teams.

The new Dallara GP2/08, which will remain in place over the next three seasons before replacement, was the only non-F1 car to pass the full 2007 FIA crash tests. Introduced over a two-day test session at the Paul Ricard circuit in France this past weekend, the 2008 model features a number of updates, primarily focused on aerodynamics. Although most of the 26 cars ran largely without problems, a few cars revealed extra strain on the front suspension and steering assembly as a result of the new aero package.

Could the new IRL car be some enhanced version of this car?

[Hoop-98]

The main thing to take from this or any car is IMO of course more undertray, less wing.

I was at the INDY museum yesterday looking at the 95 Lola and the other cars in the evolution of the series. What stuck in my mind is the cycle of innovation and rule change to thwart that innovation. Big wings sprout, then become small wings etc..

In the late 90s we restricted the tunnel exits and that idea has carried over into the IRL cars, though to a lesser extent. This was to counter the annual advances in aero.

Without that competition between makes I think Dallara or anyone for that matter will go in this direction.

One somewhat radical idea Handford had was a wing with minimal lift ~200 lbs, that actually improved grip in a wake.

But with a single make series, you design the car to do what you want it to, not to fit in a rules box designed to hamper performance.

The GP2/0x is also designed to appeal. look like a F1 car, this isn't a design objective here.

Whatever criteria the series decides on it shouldn't be a monumental task to improve performance and control costs in a single chassis series. Swift has done a good job of this and I am sure Dallara can too.

I realize I didn't answer your question directly jag, but I think they would rather go with a substantially new design, not enhance a GP2-0x.

The car should:
1. Look fresh but purposeful.
2. Be of similar dimension, but perhaps lighter (150 would be nice)
3. Be safe!
4. Be cost effective to purchase and repair.
5. Lap 5 pct quicker on Road Courses with 700-750 HP.
6. Be easy to work on
7. Have customizable undertrays for 3 downworce configurations.

Something like that!


rh

[V12]

I just want to see a set of technical regulations drawn up and let whoever wants to build a car meeting them to be able to do so, I don't like this idea of a spec chassis being designed with things like looks and quality of racing in mind. To be honest any racing car which is designed with any other objective than to be quicker than the opposition just leaves a horrible sick feeling in the pit of my stomach

[garyshell]

I just want to see a set of technical regulations drawn up and let whoever wants to build a car meeting them to be able to do so, I don't like this idea of a spec chassis being designed with things like looks and quality of racing in mind. To be honest any racing car which is designed with any other objective than to be quicker than the opposition just leaves a horrible sick feeling in the pit of my stomach

Affordability be damned, huh? Maybe that's not so much an objective as a constraint, but as they say at the end of "Little Steven's Underground Garage" show each week: "It's time to face stupid reality again."

We learned the lesson of speed being the only objective back in the Can-Am days, when the equation became one of cubic dollars and cubic inches. Or at least I thought we had until the IMSA days when again the costs skyrocketed. And now this sort of sentiment seems to be back. So maybe we haven't learned the lesson at all.

Gary

[CCWS77]

I just want to see a set of technical regulations drawn up and let whoever wants to build a car meeting them to be able to do so, I don't like this idea of a spec chassis being designed with things like looks and quality of racing in mind. To be honest any racing car which is designed with any other objective than to be quicker than the opposition just leaves a horrible sick feeling in the pit of my stomach

I just don't see how if you have a SPEC or if you instead have every car on the grid totally custom designed- I don't see how there is any difference whatsoever between the racing product of the two when you have burecrats in charge of the rulebook with the idea doing whatever it takes to make the outcome be a managed side by side finish. A rocket ship racing against a bicycle can be managed and regulated to be the same speed if you come up with enough interesting rules for the competition. Diversity on the starting grid doesn't address it whatsoever so IMHO you get sick over the wrong thing if you actually care about there being a genuine competition of some kind.

[Hoop-98]

I just don't see how if you have a SPEC or if you instead have every car on the grid totally custom designed- I don't see how there is any difference whatsoever between the racing product of the two when you have burecrats in charge of the rulebook with the idea doing whatever it takes to make the outcome be a managed side by side finish. A rocket ship racing against a bicycle can be managed and regulated to be the same speed if you come up with enough interesting rules for the competition. Diversity on the starting grid doesn't address it whatsoever so IMHO you get sick over the wrong thing if you actually care about there being a genuine competition of some kind.

CCWS, for my clarification purposes. What professional series did you enjoy that didn't have all this management and bureaucracy?

rh

[CCWS77]

Well are you really asking me to spell out which series seem to manage the outcome and which don't? obviously NASCAR does and the IRL seems to have originally been modeled on that. F1 does too, they just bury their management in a mountain of paperwork and legalese and fans buy this for some reason. GrandAm is just awful with race to race rules changes based on the outcome of the prior race.

I think Champ Car had a lot less of this - actually less then CART. I know people want to complain Champ Car was only ever a minor version of CART but if what had been cut out is all this BS then im fine with that. I just don't understand why people even care about the kind of vehicle showing up to race if you can't trust the integrity of the rules and process used to decide the winner.

[NickFalzone]

CCWS, in what way(s) are the integrity of the rules in the IRL and NASCAR unfair to the paying fans? Specifically, what aspecs of Champ Car's rules (which I did not watch) were superior to these series?

[Hoop-98]

Well are you really asking me to spell out which series seem to manage the outcome and which don't? obviously NASCAR does and the IRL seems to have originally been modeled on that. F1 does too, they just bury their management in a mountain of paperwork and legalese and fans buy this for some reason. GrandAm is just awful with race to race rules changes based on the outcome of the prior race.

I think Champ Car had a lot less of this - actually less then CART. I know people want to complain Champ Car was only ever a minor version of CART but if what had been cut out is all this BS then im fine with that. I just don't understand why people even care about the kind of vehicle showing up to race if you can't trust the integrity of the rules and process used to decide the winner.

I see, CART (the home of the Circus Clown, variable Pop offs, the Austrailian wait till Andretti runs out then throw the flag, the banned Lola, the porsche, the Franchise System) I could go on forever!!!!!!

Champcar with the 5 minute post race techs that had the Teams screaming...

I am speechless....Thats some dayuum good koolaid...

;n)

[garyshell]

Well are you really asking me to spell out which series seem to manage the outcome and which don't? obviously NASCAR does and the IRL seems to have originally been modeled on that. F1 does too, they just bury their management in a mountain of paperwork and legalese and fans buy this for some reason. GrandAm is just awful with race to race rules changes based on the outcome of the prior race.

I think Champ Car had a lot less of this - actually less then CART. I know people want to complain Champ Car was only ever a minor version of CART but if what had been cut out is all this BS then im fine with that. I just don't understand why people even care about the kind of vehicle showing up to race if you can't trust the integrity of the rules and process used to decide the winner.

Leaves me asking, OK which ones didn't/don't?

Gary