Formula X

[Koz]

Wise men learn from their mistakes, but wiser men learn from other peoples mistakes. Taking a look at those supposed to be running this sport does not fill me with confidence.

You can't compare that.

CART failed because of americans - the lack thereof. Wasn't everything also based around one single event too?
It was always doomed.

[Mugsey]

You can't compare that.

CART failed because of americans - the lack thereof. Wasn't everything also based around one single event too?
It was always doomed.

I would disagree; remember that CART was fabulously successful for decades after they split from USAC way back when. Successful enough, in fact to attract a reigning World Champion...

Many people seem to forget what really caused the initial split between CART and the IRL: Nothing more than Tony "I wish I was Bernie" George.

George REALLY wanted to be the Ecclestone of American open wheel racing, but CART was going great guns, didn't need or want his "leadership" and basically told him to get bent and go run his racetrack. So he went out and started his own series (with the help of a few others like A.J. Foyt, who thought American open wheel racing should only be contested on oval tracks).

Knowing no-one was going to be interested in his upstart, circles only series, he hijacked the Indy 500 by declaring that if you didn't run all the races in HIS series, you couldn't run Indy. That meant if CART didn't come and play his way, they would be excluded from the biggest race on their caladar.

Of course racing runs on sponsorship and the sponsors wanted to be at Indy, so many teams were forced into IRL by sponsor pressure. The departure of sponsorship dollars really weakened CART and eventually it became a second-rate series. Of course IRL was second-rate in it's concept, so there wasn't any really top shelf open wheel series left in America.

Open wheel racing in America hasn't failed due to a lack of fans or because there aren't enough fans to support two series. It's failed because open wheel racing in America has become mind-numbingly tedious, leaving the fans with nothing worth supporting. All thanks, almost entirely, to Tony George and his desire to own open wheel racing in America.

I don't mean to turn this thread into a history of Indy racing, but I think it does go to show that when the best interest of a competitve race series comes second to the interest of the individual running it (or wanting to), nothing good will come of it. We seem to be on the verge of an ego war between Bernie and Max in which F-1 is a pawn. FOTA seems to have come along at just the right time, let's hope they can stick together long enough to see this through. Throwing their hat in with Bernie will slove nothing, only carry on as now under a different name. Bernie doesn't have anyone's interest in mind other than his own...

...But we knew that already...

[call_me_andrew]

If this happens - CART and IRL all over again...

I wouldn't mind that happening because it would result in both Max and Bernie eating humble pie.

EDIT: Worst case scenario: NASCAR somehow purchases the FIA.

[truefan72]

I would disagree; remember that CART was fabulously successful for decades after they split from USAC way back when. Successful enough, in fact to attract a reigning World Champion...

Many people seem to forget what really caused the initial split between CART and the IRL: Nothing more than Tony "I wish I was Bernie" George.

George REALLY wanted to be the Ecclestone of American open wheel racing, but CART was going great guns, didn't need or want his "leadership" and basically told him to get bent and go run his racetrack. So he went out and started his own series (with the help of a few others like A.J. Foyt, who thought American open wheel racing should only be contested on oval tracks).

Knowing no-one was going to be interested in his upstart, circles only series, he hijacked the Indy 500 by declaring that if you didn't run all the races in HIS series, you couldn't run Indy. That meant if CART didn't come and play his way, they would be excluded from the biggest race on their caladar.

Of course racing runs on sponsorship and the sponsors wanted to be at Indy, so many teams were forced into IRL by sponsor pressure. The departure of sponsorship dollars really weakened CART and eventually it became a second-rate series. Of course IRL was second-rate in it's concept, so there wasn't any really top shelf open wheel series left in America.

Open wheel racing in America hasn't failed due to a lack of fans or because there aren't enough fans to support two series. It's failed because open wheel racing in America has become mind-numbingly tedious, leaving the fans with nothing worth supporting. All thanks, almost entirely, to Tony George and his desire to own open wheel racing in America.

I don't mean to turn this thread into a history of Indy racing, but I think it does go to show that when the best interest of a competitve race series comes second to the interest of the individual running it (or wanting to), nothing good will come of it. We seem to be on the verge of an ego war between Bernie and Max in which F-1 is a pawn. FOTA seems to have come along at just the right time, let's hope they can stick together long enough to see this through. Throwing their hat in with Bernie will slove nothing, only carry on as now under a different name. Bernie doesn't have anyone's interest in mind other than his own...

...But we knew that already...

excellent post

[F1boat]

I wouldn't mind that happening because it would result in both Max and Bernie eating humble pie.

EDIT: Worst case scenario: NASCAR somehow purchases the FIA.

I don't know about this, but it will be very funny if on ten years F1 and "Formula X" negotiate to unify, while DTM rules Europe...

[Hondo]

I wouldn't mind that happening because it would result in both Max and Bernie eating humble pie.

EDIT: Worst case scenario: NASCAR somehow purchases the FIA.

Mugsy laid it all out quite well with the exception of A. J. "An American Series for American drivers" Foyt winning the thing with a Swedish driver. Hypocrite.

Max and Bernie will eat nothing. They hold the rights to use the name "Formula 1" and "World Championship" and that is what the TV networks and merchandisers have bought into. There is more than enough time to have enough customer engines and chassis ready by 2010. The grid will be full regardless of who quits. Like Tony George, Max and Bernie will be marketing a vastly inferior product as Formula 1 Grand Prix World Championship. While older fans drift away in disgust, new fans will take their place and for those new fans, what they see will be Formula 1 racing. Within a couple seasons the fans, just like the IRL crowd, will believe they are watching the real deal...Championship racing...the Pinnacle of Motorsport.

Bernie and Max won't lose as long as they own the name.

[jens]

In recent days got thinking about it - and I'll ask you. Which series would you watch?

A1'10: 3 cars per team
Ferrari: FM / KR / FA
Toyota: JT / TG / KK
McLaren: LH / HK / NR
BMW-Sauber: RK / NH / CK
Red Bull: SV / SBu / BH(artley)
Renault: RG / LdG / MW

F1 2010 (all teams powered by Cosworth)
BrawnGP: BUT / BAR
Williams: HUL / DAV
Force India: SUT / LIU
ProDrive: DLR / PAF
Lola: SAT / SEN
Dallara-ART: PTO / NAK
USGPE: ALL / PAT
Litespeed: MAL / FIS
Penske: DIX / SPE
iSport: MOT / PIQ

[AndyL]

In recent days got thinking about it - and I'll ask you. Which series would you watch?

A1'10: 3 cars per team
Ferrari: FM / KR / FA
Toyota: JT / TG / KK
McLaren: LH / HK / NR
BMW-Sauber: RK / NH / CK
Red Bull: SV / SBu / BH(artley)
Renault: RG / LdG / MW

If you just had Massa, Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton racing Nova SRi's round my local supermarket car park I would probably watch that! If there is a split, I think where the top drivers go will be the key to success.

F1 2010 (all teams powered by Cosworth)
BrawnGP: BUT / BAR
Williams: HUL / DAV
Force India: SUT / LIU
ProDrive: DLR / PAF
Lola: SAT / SEN
Dallara-ART: PTO / NAK
USGPE: ALL / PAT
Litespeed: MAL / FIS
Penske: DIX / SPE
iSport: MOT / PIQ

Actually I'd probably follow this as well to keep track of the massive bet I'd have put on Button at the start of the season.

[UltimateDanGTR]

In recent days got thinking about it - and I'll ask you. Which series would you watch?

A1'10: 3 cars per team
Ferrari: FM / KR / FA
Toyota: JT / TG / KK
McLaren: LH / HK / NR
BMW-Sauber: RK / NH / CK
Red Bull: SV / SBu / BH(artley)
Renault: RG / LdG / MW

F1 2010 (all teams powered by Cosworth)
BrawnGP: BUT / BAR
Williams: HUL / DAV
Force India: SUT / LIU
ProDrive: DLR / PAF
Lola: SAT / SEN
Dallara-ART: PTO / NAK
USGPE: ALL / PAT
Litespeed: MAL / FIS
Penske: DIX / SPE
iSport: MOT / PIQ

id do my best to watch both, then work out which one is more farcicle, then disown that.

[call_me_andrew]

Mugsy laid it all out quite well with the exception of A. J. "An American Series for American drivers" Foyt winning the thing with a Swedish driver. Hypocrite.

Max and Bernie will eat nothing. They hold the rights to use the name "Formula 1" and "World Championship" and that is what the TV networks and merchandisers have bought into. There is more than enough time to have enough customer engines and chassis ready by 2010. The grid will be full regardless of who quits. Like Tony George, Max and Bernie will be marketing a vastly inferior product as Formula 1 Grand Prix World Championship. While older fans drift away in disgust, new fans will take their place and for those new fans, what they see will be Formula 1 racing. Within a couple seasons the fans, just like the IRL crowd, will believe they are watching the real deal...Championship racing...the Pinnacle of Motorsport.

Bernie and Max won't lose as long as they own the name.

If a well known name is all that a series needs, the IndyCar Series should be thriving. Instead the "IRL crowd" is mostly a bunch of old guys talking about how much better everything was before the split.

In fact I suggested a few months ago that FOTA purchase the IRL just to have the rights to the name IndyCar. I was laughed out of the thread.