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  1. #21
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    Odly enough , the dominant car in those non-championship F1 races was the BRM V16, winning something like a Dozen races in those two years!

  2. #22
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    D28, I don't contest he was one of the best of his time, what I said was it's strange people don't regard him up there with the greats. Perhaps that is because he died in 55 and therefore was only in the F1 history books a short time. I guess what I meant was F2 cars are never going to be as tough as F1 cars to drive but I do agree the guys he was racing against were tough competitors.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo
    Since the FIA are the owners of the title, they alone decide the conditions which make up how it shall be run and won. It really doesn't matter what regulations the race itself was run to. By virtue of above, that is an irrelevancy. The official FIA website counts it as part of the '53 season. This battle is over!
    The FIA did never "owned" the original championship, the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs, in the sense that it now owns the current championship. Its sporting commission, the CSI, included the International 500 Mile Sweepstakes event at Indianapolis in the original 1925 world championship -- it was the inaugural event, in fact -- and included the event in the championship from 1950 to 1960.

    Quote Originally Posted by blito
    Ascari`s achievements in 52-53 are amazing! but sadly not a record. The WDC records would show the indy 500 breaking up ascaris fine run of success, so even though he won 9 times from 9 starts, thats NOT the same as winning 9 consecutive world championship events.

    One strange thing from this period is the WDC being run to F2 regs + indy 500.The F2 regs were used because of a lack of competitive F1 machinery after Alfa`s withdrawal at the end of 1951, leaving Ferrari the only competitve F1 team ( the theortically faster BRM V16 being woefully unreliable at this time). So, to improve the competition the wdc was run to F2 regs - which Ferrari completely dominated! So, management meddling didnt work in the 50`s either!
    Plus ca change, plus ca mem chose!
    or something
    Although the reason that is usually given and accepted for the switch to F2 in 1952 and 1953 as the lack of suitable F1 cars, the reasons are really a bit more complicated than that, of course. The failure of BRM to make a committment to the series -- the Spring race at Torino in particular being cited -- when Alfa stepped down in early 1952 seems to be the usual reason given, but even before that occurred several clubs had already opted for running their events to F2 or were openly discussing the possibility of doing so. As ever, the root of the issue was money, the organizing clubs often being somewhat stingy with their prize and starting monies. F2 was relatively cheaper and, therefore, an attractive option for the clubs. There was also the hazy, fuzzy role of the CSI and the championship in the grand scheme of things, the former allocating places on the international sporting calendar to the clubs for their national events, those counting towards the championship in other words, on the assumption that they would be run to the Formule Internationale. Initially, the CSI appeared to not be very concerned when a club or two decided to run their event to F2, but when the stampede began, the CSI -- in an unusually smart move for The Gents in Blazers -- went along with the tide, lest it end up like King Harold.

    Although this has been mentioned before, from 1950 to 1953 the Indianapolis event was run to a formula that meant that the vast majority of the machines participating during those years conformed to the Formule Internationale, which was certainly not the case from 1954 to 1960, of course.
    Popular memory is not history.... -- Gordon Wood

  4. #24
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    Re: Alberto Ascari's Record Of 9 Wins In A Row

    Most of the time people don' t think of contradictions when they try such a vain thing as classifying drivers .

    But, please, when those contradictions are easy to find, they are kindly invited to measure all the consequences of their choice.

    Classifying Ascari is a good example of those : you' ll find most of the observers that will praise Fangio and put him always in the top ranked list, but at the same time doesn't want to see that their choice wld oblige them to put Ascari too. At least if they want their judgement to have some value . Why ? Simply because during 3 years Ascari was completely in par with him, and maybe better.

    I have no particular sympathies for both of them, simply because I didn 't know them. Let us admire them for their accomplishments, but from a far distance.

    So how Fangio can be so great, and Ascari effectively so much forgotten ?? ( remark won 't apply for serious observers and witnesses of that era, but for the main stream of motor racing followers )

    Same apply for Senna : those who put him as the greatest or in the top ranked drivers, should as well have some praise for Prost, to give better value to their judgement .But in most case, Prost won't be on their list.Let me think we can guess why.Strange, isn' it ?

    Michel

  5. #25
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    Re: Alberto Ascari's Record Of 9 Wins In A Row

    Ascari's proper place in F1 hierarchy continues to provoke lots of discussion on this and other blogs. For me his record speaks volumes and needs little further embelishment by supporters. In terms of legacy he was hugely unlucky. Ultimately to lose his life in a freak, unsheduled test drive, but also to see his greatest domination of GP racing run to F2 regulations. Secondly the 1952 season was run without JM Fangio's participation.
    Ascari had no control whatever over either event, and probably wished Fangio had been present. He had no fear of racing against him having beaten him numerous times. Observers at the time certainly rated them as equals it is only in later years that Ascari's star has dimmed somewhat. As to why, there is no clear obvious answer.

  6. #26
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    Re: Alberto Ascari's Record Of 9 Wins In A Row

    Take it easy. 9 wins in a row in motor-racing history are more likely made by super power of a car&team. Not by any driver.
    In this topic AA was just so lucky to have such dominant car&team. Just like Fangio had in other seasons, or like MS in 2002, 2004.
    Quick fact: same driver, MS, but without dominant car, just loose to his team-mate 3 seasons in a row: 2010-2011-2012. Really?
    * sapienti sat *

  7. #27
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    Re: Alberto Ascari's Record Of 9 Wins In A Row

    Quote Originally Posted by kup
    Take it easy. 9 wins in a row in motor-racing history are more likely made by super power of a car&team. Not by any driver.
    In this topic AA was just so lucky to have such dominant car&team. Just like Fangio had in other seasons, or like MS in 2002, 2004.
    Quick fact: same driver, MS, but without dominant car, just loose to his team-mate 3 seasons in a row: 2010-2011-2012. Really?
    What I think D-Type (in your other thread) and certainly me, are trying to point to, is the utter domination Alberto Ascari held over major GP racing in 1952-53. From Jun 52 to Jul 53 he not only did well, but won every WC European race held, and won another 5 or 6 non-championship F2 races. I don't know , or frankly care how the official F1 record book treats the streak, either 9, or "only" 7 GP; Michael Schumacher in 2004 equaled it at 7, but this does not surpass Ascari's feat.
    On the Ferrari team were Taruffi, Villoresi, Farina and later Hawthorn, the latter two were not inclined to follow the leader; indeed Hawthorn finally ended the streak at 9 at the French GP.
    For you to concoct a point system that somehow would deprive Ascari of top status in 1953, is utter nonsense, Ascari won more GPs in 1953 than Hawthorn did lifetime. Somehow I don't think it was all up to the car.

  8. #28
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    Re: Alberto Ascari's Record Of 9 Wins In A Row

    Quote Originally Posted by kup
    Take it easy. 9 wins in a row in motor-racing history are more likely made by super power of a car&team. Not by any driver.
    In this topic AA was just so lucky to have such dominant car&team. Just like Fangio had in other seasons, or like MS in 2002, 2004.
    Quick fact: same driver, MS, but without dominant car, just loose to his team-mate 3 seasons in a row: 2010-2011-2012. Really?
    And why did Ascari, Fangio, Schumacher and others end up in the dominant car?

    Answers:
    (1) Team owners aren't stupid. They will try to get the best driver they can to drive their car
    (2) Drivers aren't stupid either. They will try to get a drive in the best car they can
    (3) One of the characteristics of a top driver is the ability to set up a car
    (4) Combine (1), (2) and (3) and you find that the best drivers generally end up in the best cars
    Duncan Rollo

    The more you learn, the more you realise how little you know.

  9. #29
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    Re: Alberto Ascari's Record Of 9 Wins In A Row

    [i]" His untimely death at the age of 37 left the road clear for Fangio to drive on to immortality.To be sure, he was challenged on occasion by the young pretenders Mike Hawthorn and Stirling Moss, but their victories were few and far between and they never remotely challenged his overall supremacy, which he never possessed so long as Ascari was around. Ascari's record shows that he was capable of beating Fangio virtually any day of the week but with no Ascari to challenge him, Juan Manuel racked up four World Championships in a row before retiring in 1958and his outstanding success in the years after Alberto's death, culminating with that sensational drive in the 1957 German GP, have undoubtedly overshadowed the Italian's achievements. Yet in Ascari' s lifetime there were many who considered him to be better than Fangio and observers were referring to him as Maestro long before that accolade was bestowed upon the Argentine.

    It is worth noting that Fangio declined Gianni Lancia 's invitation to join Ascari in his Grand Prix team and the fact that, had he done so, one of them would have proved to be faster than the other may well have had something to do with it.In the light of Fangio's god-like reputation today that may seem like heresy, but in 1954 both were in the Lancia sportscar team for two events and whether racing on the wide, aerodrome spaces of Sebring through the serpentine roads that ran between the hedgerows of Dundrod, Ascari was consistently the quicker and, in the Tourist Trophy by a considerable margin . Autocourse published the lap times of every car ( to seconds only, no tenths)and Ascari's fastest lap was 4'50", as opposed to Fangio 4' 55".


    Alberto Ascari was unquestionably one of the greatest drivers of all time. He excelled on any circuit you care to name and at the Nürburgring, the most demanding of all, he was virtually unbeatable.He won pole position in all four GPs he entered(1) , set fastest lap in three and won three.And he won the first 1000 kms. If the Nordschleife is a yardstick of a driver's greatness, then Alberto Ascari has no superiors. "

    from the late Chris Nixon recommandable book : "Kings of the Nürburgring" published in 2005

    (1) 1950 race with F2 rules

    so these are arguments .

    Ascari overshadowed greatness suffer certainly of the few litterature available on him.Now, youngsters and even Motor Racing enthusiasts in their fifties don't have much way to appreciate Ascari ( or simply the time to look closely at this driver) because his name is rarely pronounced in debates.

    From a distance, I still think the definitive book on Ascari's achievements has to be written . But the sad thing is there are few chances one of Ascari's contemporary will be there to do the job.

    michel

  10. #30
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    Re: Alberto Ascari's Record Of 9 Wins In A Row

    I agree completely. I see there is a biography still available from noted journalist Karl Ludvigsen, published in 2000. Perhaps someone would care to comment on this book?

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