[ALMS09]12h of Sebring - official thread

[SportscarBruce]

Do you think that Grand-Am and ALMS can continue to co-exist?

I believe they will continue to exist, which isn't bad for the drivers and teams that run in both series, or for that matter the track owners. But individual endeavors aside, I firmly believe the continued existence of two prototype racing series limits sports car racing's potential in every respect.

If F1 has broken up during the early 70's and mid-80's when such a possibility did indeed exist there is no way the sport would have reached the heights it now enjoys, and the same thing goes for NASCAR if Burton Smith had pulled the trigger on TRAC (Team Racing Auto Circuit) earlier this decade.

http://investing.businessweek.com/bu...vcapId=1525920

O/T: Strange how TRAC still lives in name (don't bother with the series website though, it's a dead link) considering this threat of a rival stock car series was shelved once Texas got its second NASCAR date. Anyone have a guess as to why? Hmmmm.....

[F1boat]

Sportscar Bruce, thank you for the answer!

[Bob Riebe]

What the sport needs most is a World Championship of Makes. Not only is the US professional sports car category divided, the North American and European series meet at Le Mans, and with a few exceptions here and there that's it.

Single option racing IS the death of racing, but what is killing racing now is the manufacturers or privateers have no reason to compete and every reason to quit wasting money on a product that can be illegal tomorrow.

NASCAR the supposed current 800lb. gorilla, banned the Hemi back in the sixties.
Chrysler pulled out and Ford raced itself; why was it re-allowed?
Because the Chrysler boys went over to USAC stock cars and raced very happily there.
NASCAR had a choice allow the engine or become history.
The reason they had COMPETITION; NOW THEY HAVE NONE and can act like a 800lb gorilla.

The IMSA banned the turbo-Porsches in the late seventies, so Porsche moved over to the Trans-Am which was in its death throws and nearly cancelled. POOF new life and both series thrived for over a decade after that.

For some reason people think that ONE series is some kind of magic pixie dust and everyone will suddenly agree, the rules will be SOOOOO good manufactureres will just jump in blindly-- BS.

NASCAR style draconian boredom is all you get when there is only one series; and remember NASCAR was the first with restrictors and professional spec. racing.

The contrived rules in both GARRA and the IMSA/ACO give manufactureres NO REASON to compete.
The rules do not allow any company to show who produces the best product; only to show who has the most money to cheat the rules that are supposed to put everyone on a boring SCCA spec. series level of equality.
Equal is boring- different styles to reach a single peak is variety at its best.
With the contrived spec. racing there is NO variety and the rules make it that way.

[F1boat]

Bob Riebe, this is interesting post, but do you think that today there are enough fans to support both the Rolex series and the ALMS?

[Bob Riebe]

Bob Riebe, this is interesting post, but do you think that today there are enough fans to support both the Rolex series and the ALMS?

If there are not enough fans-- for what reason?

Reduced populatin?
I do not think so.
Fewer makes of cars?
The loss of AMC has not caused road racing to go into the tank.
Hmmmm.

Maybe it is loss of cars in the series, which is caused by rules the series run by, that no longer inspire auto concerns to compete and fans (NOW it could be- this has changed- but many fans used to go to root for their favorite make or vehicle.
Many Trans-Am fans were loyalists- the Ford, Chevy, AMC etc. were devils to the faithful if that was not their make of car.) most fans are not stupid enough to spend big bucks on contrived equality, caused by NASCAR wannabe spec. rules.

The diesels in the last race were interesting, but were not left to be also rans- by the gasoline cars--ONLY-- because the gasoline cars power curve is strangled by rules. (A diesel only series with unrestricted diesel would be interesting, [the way diesels function limits how fast they can go. They cannot do as gasoline engines and gain speed by gaining rpms which increases horse-power.])

Now maybe todays fans have become so illiterate, many have no idea what is going on, but I still believe they are not morons.

Sprint car and drag racing were doing just fine (the chicken-little 1000ft thing in top fuel has taken the bloom off of that rose for many) so the fans are out there, the sanctions god-complexes have driven them away- it would seem.

[F1boat]

Thanks for the answer

[Shifter]

(A diesel only series with unrestricted diesel would be interesting, [the way diesels function limits how fast they can go. They cannot do as gasoline engines and gain speed by gaining rpms which increases horse-power.])

With the understanding that 'racing improves the breed', I would expect that this could lead to some VERY bulletproof transmissions! Can you imagine a rulebook that allowed unrestricted diesel technology so long as the cars had CVT's? Talk about fast-tracking a technology lol.

[rob01]

I think if there was a new world sportscar championship it wouldnt have a big enough following in north america.
i cant think of any world championship that is as big in america as it is in europe ect.

~NExt year is the start of the world GT championship and i cant help thinking thatys whats going to kill it off slowly...

[wedge]

Anybody know the attendance numbers? Looked like business as usual despite the financial crisis.

[CCWS77]

Single option racing IS the death of racing, but what is killing racing now is the manufacturers or privateers have no reason to compete and every reason to quit wasting money on a product that can be illegal tomorrow.

NASCAR the supposed current 800lb. gorilla, banned the Hemi back in the sixties.
Chrysler pulled out and Ford raced itself; why was it re-allowed?
Because the Chrysler boys went over to USAC stock cars and raced very happily there.
NASCAR had a choice allow the engine or become history.
The reason they had COMPETITION; NOW THEY HAVE NONE and can act like a 800lb gorilla.

The IMSA banned the turbo-Porsches in the late seventies, so Porsche moved over to the Trans-Am which was in its death throws and nearly cancelled. POOF new life and both series thrived for over a decade after that.

For some reason people think that ONE series is some kind of magic pixie dust and everyone will suddenly agree, the rules will be SOOOOO good manufactureres will just jump in blindly-- BS.

NASCAR style draconian boredom is all you get when there is only one series; and remember NASCAR was the first with restrictors and professional spec. racing.

The contrived rules in both GARRA and the IMSA/ACO give manufactureres NO REASON to compete.
The rules do not allow any company to show who produces the best product; only to show who has the most money to cheat the rules that are supposed to put everyone on a boring SCCA spec. series level of equality.
Equal is boring- different styles to reach a single peak is variety at its best.
With the contrived spec. racing there is NO variety and the rules make it that way.

That is a most interesting post. I agree with your sentiment that the type of problems you describe hurt the popularity of racing in general as a sport and its financial bottom line. However, I think you have gotten the reason exactly backwards.

You are suggesting that open, malleable rules and sanctioning bodies opens things up and attracts more manufacturers when that is exactly what the problem is. What is needed is strong transparent rule makers that are accountable only to fans and willing to tell manufacturers to take a hike if they don't like it. Rulebooks should be printed in blood at begining of the season, not modified for the highest bidder on a whim. Constantly negotiable rules and sanctioning bodies that bend over backwards to please manufacturers is exactly the cause of all the messes and the idea that rules are and have been too rigid in racing is a notion that is hard to entertain with a straight face.

Why do teams have no incentive to race when their innovations can suddenly be lobbied to become illegal by a competitor. This doesn't happen with a strong sanctioning body above the influence. If time and resources are more effectively spent lobbying to get rules changed, rather then learning to compete within them, then there will be chaos and politics. Whats even worse is that these "open" rules often take the form of lobbying to get a competitor's innovation banned, and thus has the opposite effect of what you are expecting.

You claim NASCAR is boring because it is SPEC. Stop and think about your argument. NASCAR makes most of its decsisions to appease the manufactuers and spends more on parts and development then anyone else. The entire enterprise is a political and economic game of which manufacturer gets thier way. The players involved hate the SPEC parts because it interferes with this chaos. Clearly the SPEC parts are the cause of the problems? really? Seems more like the SPEC parts are the only thing keeping any semblace of consistent rules and keeping the whole thing tethered to reality. It is the negotiable rules and politics that makes it a joke.