petty bickering about a racing incident that happened 10 years ago thread

[Knock-on]

I think (and it is a theory that some prominent talking-heads have also suggested) that if Michael had a weakness, it was in his split-second moments of judgement.

I do not believe it was premeditated, as I don't believe Jerez 97 was the result of a masterplan, and I don't believe that Schumacher had a moral issue with turning in at that moment purely because he was in racing mode.

To crucify somebody for something premediated, as a believe Senna at Suzuka 90 was (don't have to believe it, he admitted as much) is one thing, but I never thought Michael deliberately carried out any of his controversial moments behind the wheel with the mindset that "this is wrong, but feck it"...I think it was more "Feck! What Can I Do?" panic than evidence of a dark, calculating soul.

It was not pretty, but I really don't believe that in that moment Michael had the ability to remove himself from the instant and think "oh no, best not".

Somebody with that fierce competitive instinct cannot just take time-out until after the event.

If you recall, he was genuinely surprised by the feelings of resentment against him after Jerez 97....which, while in no way endorsing them, does for me make it clear that it wasn't the act of a totally unscrupulous bxxxxxd that many have claimed it was. Same applies to Adelaide 94.

Very good arguement that I have some sympathy with.

For the record, I don't beleive for one second he is a heartless b***ard and never have. Ruthless B***ard on the track but off it, he seems a genuine and genorous purson.

If I put myself in his position on the grid in '94, I would say to myself:

"If he wants to get by me, he's going to have to come through me and I'm not going to make it easy if he sticks a nose up the inside. He needs to pass me, not the other way around so lets see how far he's prepared to go."

That is being hard and knowing that if he forces it up the inside where there's no room, you will shut the door quite legally.

This is where I have some sympathy because Schumy still had that mindset but was out of it really. He just followed through on his game plan and I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he meant to do it but more through instinct than any rational decision.

However, he did do it and the only thing that weakens his position is the fact he did exactly the same against JV.

Still, it was a long time ago and that's life. Peoples views on MS will not change now but perhaps mellow and accept

[555-04Q2]

1. The sarcastic response in your previous post made me post point one again. You're assuming something that never was, the case was closed almost 14 years ago

2. How does a car behind have right of way over a car in front of it We should apply that rule to races so we can promote overtaking (my sarcastic prompt for the day)

Enjoy your weekend

[wedge]

Who do you support?

I'd like to say that I don't support particular driver because I like to try to come across as impartial but to give it a push it would be the best of the best currently IMO, Lewis, Alonso, Kimi, Kubica and possibly Massa (if I were to be biased I'd say I can't ever see Massa become WDC but there's another side that says he can do it.)

Mansell is my hero and I used to hate Senna. I guess I now have a love/hate relationship with him. Same with Schumi.

[wedge]

Very good arguement that I have some sympathy with.

For the record, I don't beleive for one second he is a heartless b***ard and never have. Ruthless B***ard on the track but off it, he seems a genuine and genorous purson.

If I put myself in his position on the grid in '94, I would say to myself:

"If he wants to get by me, he's going to have to come through me and I'm not going to make it easy if he sticks a nose up the inside. He needs to pass me, not the other way around so lets see how far he's prepared to go."

That is being hard and knowing that if he forces it up the inside where there's no room, you will shut the door quite legally.

This is where I have some sympathy because Schumy still had that mindset but was out of it really. He just followed through on his game plan and I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he meant to do it but more through instinct than any rational decision.

However, he did do it and the only thing that weakens his position is the fact he did exactly the same against JV.

Still, it was a long time ago and that's life. Peoples views on MS will not change now but perhaps mellow and accept

Very much agree with your assessment there.

Schumi is above all an out and out racer.

Hungary 2006 is good example of this. His inters were worn, going backwards and still defending his position as if his life depended on it. You can question more on his methods but not his motivation/ambition.

[speeddurango]

Schumachers car was damaged was it not yet he turned in.

IIRC, Schumy said he had no steering at the time. Hmmmmm!!

As for impartiality, I was a fan of Schumacher until that point in time.

But... This is supposed to be a fun thread

Oh, Schumy was able to turn in hard into Hill's car with no steering, what an amazing driver, I instantly became a fan of Schumacher from that point in time.

[D-Type]

The fundamental question is whether the collision resulted from a conscious action. To give the issue some perspective, suppose the collision had led to a fatality, which they could have even with the construction of modern cars. In that situation there would be three verdicts you could give:

(1) Murder: A premeditated or planned action
(2) Manslaughter: A deliberate but not preplanned action
(3) Accidental death: There was no deliberate attempt to drive into the other car

Taking the main incidents referred to, my take is:

(1) Suzuka 1980
(2) Adelaide 1998, Jerez 1994, Suzuka 1989 (marginal)
(3) Countless other incidents: Hamilton/Koivalanen this year, Schumacher/Coulthard at Spa, Senna/Mansell (the occasion when Mansell 'had words' with him afterwards), Ascari/Marimon/Fangio/Farina Monza 1953, etc

It is notable how often Senna's name appears in this type of list.

[PolePosition_1]

1. The sarcastic response in your previous post made me post point one again. You're assuming something that never was, the case was closed almost 14 years ago

2. How does a car behind have right of way over a car in front of it We should apply that rule to races so we can promote overtaking (my sarcastic prompt for the day)

Enjoy your weekend

1: are you denying the bennetton had traction control on the car?

2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfby7GaMXmo

Go to this clip, pause it on 29 seconds and tell me Hill was behind Schumacher.

He was right up in the inside.

[PolePosition_1]

Very much agree with your assessment there.

Schumi is above all an out and out racer.

Hungary 2006 is good example of this. His inters were worn, going backwards and still defending his position as if his life depended on it. You can question more on his methods but not his motivation/ambition.

Yeah Hungary 2006 was interesting.

He cut a chicane therefore keeping his position because he cut the chicane.

Was justified by officials that they only penalise becaause he didn't gain a position.

2 years later Hamilton does the same and gets penalised for it.....

.....but thats more of a criticism towards authorities than Schumacher.

[ArrowsFA1]

2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfby7GaMXmo

Go to this clip, pause it on 29 seconds and tell me Hill was behind Schumacher.

He was right up in the inside.

Watching this clip just reminds me how painful events were to watch at the time

The incident itself was bad enough, but the few minutes afterwards were worse. Hill limping back to the pits. The Williams mechanics examining the car while Hills shakes his head in disbelief as it becomes obvious he can't continue. Meanwhile, MS is out of his car and waiting for news. Hill sits in his car for seemingly an age before getting out and walking away. Immediately afterwards we see the Benetton mechanics celebrating, the tv screen confirms MS is WDC, then a marshall lets him know.

It just seemed such an injustice, and that the wrong man won.

2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfby7GaMXmo

Go to this clip, pause it on 29 seconds and tell me Hill was behind Schumacher.

He was right up in the inside.

Look at it on 15 seconds....he was behind with no chance of making the corner without contact.