So how is it so far?!!

[!!WALDO!!]

Pretty sure the infastructure for road racing was in place back then too... public roads? 'Lot more of those than there were horse tracks.

I the teens, roads? Actually there were more horse tracks. Problem was the races like CART tried to go to the people so some courses were 40 miles in length and ran 6 laps so people would sit and wait for over an hour for the cars to come round. Soon the fans stopped showing so they went with the Board Tracks. Soon there were no Road Races on the schedule and remained that way until the 1937 Vanderbilt and again it start with 1965 with 1 point race, 1966 2, one point race, 1967 5, all point races, 1968, 9 all point races, 1969, 8 all point races, 1970, 3 all point races. Problem was the shows did not do well year after year. IRP was the longest surviving show 6 years, Riverside and Castle Rock 3 years, Mosport, St Jovite 2 years, Mt Fuji, Las Vegas, Donnybrooke, Kent, Sonoma, 1 year.

Road racing has been around just as long as oval racing, yet oval racing is traditionally the dominant form in AOWR.

From 1919 to 1949 in the U.S. in what form? Its roots like Drag Racing is in Southern California in the 1950's. Mostly non-professional classes. It really wasn't until the USRRC got going that Road Racing took root. It is too bad that every one of those went out of business. USRRC/CanAm, Trans-Am and Formula-5000 with all of the so called re-starts. Just not enough fans to support it. Look today at the G-A and ALMS as they are not drawing either as the new fan wants to see the whole race not pieces of it.

I'm not saying they don't belong on road courses, I like a mixture. But anyone that thinks AOWR doesn't belong on ovals or doesn't realize why it's always been dominated by ovals needs to open their eyes.

See if NASCAR could go into the Western New York Market on an oval or the Northern California market with an oval both races would be gone. They are driven by the market.
It is interesting in 1968 season, Indianapolis Raceway Park drew 12,500 for a race, what 7 miles from where they drew 250,000 6-7 weeks earlier. Then in September drew more than IRP at the Indiana State Faigrounds, another 7 miles away to see them race on dirt. A horse track. That race was the second highest paying race on the schedule.

I agree in a mix but we must be careful. In 1968, 28 races were run, 9 on RC, 5 on Dirt, 9 on Mile paved tracks, 4 on Superspeedways and a Hill Climb. The following year, 5 road courses races came off four were added, 2 Miles came off the schedule, 2 Superspeedways came off the schedule. All because they didn't make money enough to stay on. One of the Supers was MIS.

Today's fan wants to go to the races to see the races not pieces of it. Just the way it is and the 1.5 gives them speed and the ability to see everything.

Some of us, do not care but for every new fan produced daily by NASCAR, the fewer and fewer that accept Road Racing. Too bad.


(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[coogmaster]

I feel like we are getting away from the intended discussion of this thread. Anyway, here is my 2 cents:

Now you guys are going to call me nuts, but I think, in order to achieve the most diverse schedule possible....

Run 'em on dirt!!

What you would have is 20-25 races per year, with maybe a 60-40 of road/street and ovals.. and then for 2 or 3 races out of the year, put the drivers in Championship dirt cars with all of their familiar sponsorship and teams. Then turn 'em loose at the mile dirt tracks of Springfield or the Indy fairgrounds. THAT would be a true test of driver ability.

I'd like to see Patrick try to run the coushin at Springfield in a Silver Crown car. THAT would be an interesting sight to see.

As long as we are on the topic...Of all the drivers in IndyCar today, who do you think could run on dirt?? I say Kanaan of course, Dixon could do it, and Carpenter and Vitor I think have that 'balls out racing' mentallity and would be able to do it as well. Of the transition guys, I'd say that Viso could drive a Championship dirt car pretty well... it would be cool to see.

They did it in the old days (Running IndyCars and Dirt cars for the same points championship) why not do it today???

[!!WALDO!!]

I feel like we are getting away from the intended discussion of this thread. Anyway, here is my 2 cents:

Now you guys are going to call me nuts, but I think, in order to achieve the most diverse schedule possible....

Run 'em on dirt!!

What you would have is 20-25 races per year, with maybe a 60-40 of road/street and ovals.. and then for 2 or 3 races out of the year, put the drivers in Championship dirt cars with all of their familiar sponsorship and teams. Then turn 'em loose at the mile dirt tracks of Springfield or the Indy fairgrounds. THAT would be a true test of driver ability.

I'd like to see Patrick try to run the coushin at Springfield in a Silver Crown car. THAT would be an interesting sight to see.

As long as we are on the topic...Of all the drivers in IndyCar today, who do you think could run on dirt?? I say Kanaan of course, Dixon could do it, and Carpenter and Vitor I think have that 'balls out racing' mentallity and would be able to do it as well. Of the transition guys, I'd say that Viso could drive a Championship dirt car pretty well... it would be cool to see.

They did it in the old days (Running IndyCars and Dirt cars for the same points championship) why not do it today???

Read 1968.

Problem is, what you are talking about started the downward spiral when the left in 1971.

Today there is little cushion racing due to the tires being too wide.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[coogmaster]

Read 1968.

Problem is, what you are talking about started the downward spiral when the left in 1971.

Today there is little cushion racing due to the tires being too wide.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

I know all about '68, I've read your post (which is really cool by the way), and my dad worked with Gary B back then for years.

I know its a long shot, but my point is that its completely doable. It might be more difficult for the smaller teams to handle the equipment transition from IndyCars to Championship dirt cars. However, if you have the big names who are in contention for the points championship, its a feasable market.

I think the problem would be driver complaints about it being to difficult, which is probably why they would never do it.

[!!WALDO!!]

I know all about '68, I've read your post (which is really cool by the way), and my dad worked with Gary B back then for years.

I know its a long shot, but my point is that its completely doable. It might be more difficult for the smaller teams to handle the equipment transition from IndyCars to Championship dirt cars. However, if you have the big names who are in contention for the points championship, its a feasable market.

I think the problem would be driver complaints about it being to difficult, which is probably why they would never do it.

I TOTALLY AGREE!

15 Road Course
15 Oval
15 Dirt
15 Short Track
3 500s

Each is it own series. All count for the National Championship.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[coogmaster]

I TOTALLY AGREE!

15 Road Course
15 Oval
15 Dirt
15 Short Track
3 500s

Each is it own series. All count for the National Championship.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

And naturally whichever driver races the most in each respective series throughout the year will accumulate the most points, and win the National Championship. A true test of driver endurance, skill, and love for the sport.

How cool would it be to see some of the drivers from the 500 race in the Hoosier Hundred the night before Indy like they used to?

The 500s should pay more points too, since they would be the 'crown jewels' of the National Championship. And some road races should pay more points as well, like Elkhart and Long Beach.

Let's call TG's office tomorrow with this idea, Waldo. We may be onto something.

[dataman1]

Coog & Waldo,

I think you guys are onto something that fans would buy into.

Define Oval versus Short Track versus Speedway (assuming 500's are ran on these) and you really have something IMO.

[xtlm]

+ 15 street course

[coogmaster]

Coog & Waldo,

I think you guys are onto something that fans would buy into.

Define Oval versus Short Track versus Speedway (assuming 500's are ran on these) and you really have something IMO.

Since Waldo posted that portion, I can't really speak for him, but here's what I think:

Short track is anything 1 mile or less. (~200 mile races)
Oval is anything over a mile and under two.(~300 mile races)
Speedway would be 2 miles or over (400 or 500 milers)

and then Road and Street courses.

and of course, the dirt tracks, which would probably be 1 milers. (Indy Fairgrounds and Springfield)

and if we were REALLY ambitious, we could throw some other tracks on there like Terre Haute and Eldora, but I'm not sure if Champsionship dirt cars run at those tracks, maybe only sprint cars?

[DavePI2]

I like indyracfan's plan of 60% ovals ,40% road/street. AOWR does have a history of being dominated by ovals. That is certainly what I remember growing up and I am 53. Plus like it or not the casual viewer that will be tuning in will probably rather watch ovals. I am not saying we should compromise like nascar and forget about the real fans like they have just to get numbers. What I am saying is we should remember our roots and also what will atract new viewers both. That being said I personally love road course racing. My favorite race has always been cleveland and my favorite track has always been midohio. I love ovals too though, Indy , Michigan, and Kentucky are all places I have watched great races at.(Kentucky fan hospitality is terrible though). So a nice mix of 60/40 seems reasonable. There is no way we will have a 50/50 split. I just don't think the powers that be will allow that. So that being said back to the old argument , which should stay and which should go.Also what new races will be added. Well we have argued that one in numerous threads so I will leave it to them. Just keep midohio and bring back cleveland please, that is all I ask. Oh I am enjoying this season very very much.

david