Rally History (part II)

[Kaps]

And thanks jorge & Carles!

[Kaps]

And now I only have Alpine-Renault & Datsun left for 1976.

At Monte, entrant: Alpine-Renault for:
Nicolas-Laverne
Andruet-Jouanny
Therier-Vial

At Corsica, entrant Alpine-Renault for
Andruet-"Biche"

At Monte, Portugal, Acropolis, Corsica & RAC, entrant: Equipe Gitanes for
Ragnotti-Andrie (Monte)
Ragnotti-Jaubert (the rest)

Can this "Equipe Gitanes" be considered part of works team or not?

And finally Datsun:
Safari
Entrant: D.T. Dobie?
Kallstrom-Lindqvist
Mehta-Doughty
Remtulla-Jivani

Acropolis:
Entrant:?
Kallstrom-Andersson
Mehta-Liddon

Finland:
Entrant: Aro Yhtyma Oy Autokeskus
Salonen-Markkula (Part of works team or privateer?)

RAC:
Entrant:Team Sanyo (works?)
Kallstrom-Phillips
Dawson-Marriott

Thank you

[januszsz]

ERC 1963 & 1964
Browsing in materials concerning ERC'63 & '64 I have to ask some questions:
1. Coupe des Alpes'63 - most sources point Rolland/Augias as the winners of the rally, but all British sources (except of John Davenport's Guinness Book of Rallying) I browsed give Aaltonen/Ambrose in the 1st position. Who is right? And who knows more about those controversies?
2. Coupe des Alpes'63 - does anybody know overall positions 7th-10th?
3. ERC'63 - Reinhard Klein ("Rally") gives Sardinian Rally as a round of Championship. Is it right?
4. ERC'64 - Somewhere I found a Portugese A.C.P. Rally as a round of ERC'64. It was won by Andrea de Adamich/Aldo Morgantini (Alfa Romeo Giulia). Does anybody know other finishers? Reinhard Klein did not mention about that round, but to be honest statistics in that book ("Rally") are not the best ones.
Regards
Janusz

[jrally]

ERC 1963 & 1964
Browsing in materials concerning ERC'63 & '64 I have to ask some questions:
1. Coupe des Alpes'63 - most sources point Rolland/Augias as the winners of the rally, but all British sources (except of John Davenport's Guinness Book of Rallying) I browsed give Aaltonen/Ambrose in the 1st position. Who is right? And who knows more about those controversies?
2. Coupe des Alpes'63 - does anybody know overall positions 7th-10th?
3. ERC'63 - Reinhard Klein ("Rally") gives Sardinian Rally as a round of Championship. Is it right?
4. ERC'64 - Somewhere I found a Portugese A.C.P. Rally as a round of ERC'64. It was won by Andrea de Adamich/Aldo Morgantini (Alfa Romeo Giulia). Does anybody know other finishers? Reinhard Klein did not mention about that round, but to be honest statistics in that book ("Rally") are not the best ones.
Regards
Janusz

1) Usually they made separate classifications by groups, not a general one, so it's possible that Jean Rolland has won one group and Aaltonen the other.

2) ECR 63 - Coupe des Alpes
7th - 'Tiny' Lewis-David Pollard GB/GB Sunbeam Rapier
8th - John Wadsworth-Alan Cooke GB/GB BMC Cooper S
9th - George Nicolas-??? Lauguil F/F Renault 1093
10th - Guy Verrier-Jacques Jourdain F/F Citroen DS 19

3) I think we've discussed it here at it seems that Sardinia Rally has made part of the championship

4) Yes, a round of the ERC
1-Andrea de Adamich-Aldo Morgantini I/I Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Super
2-Arnaldo Cavallari-Ferdinando Tecilla I/I Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Super
3-Dieter Glemser-Martin Braungart D/D Mercedes Benz 300 SE
4-Eugen Bohringer-Klaus Kaiser D/D Mercedes Benz 300 SE
5-Jorge Pessanha-???? Mascalero P/P Porsche Carrera SC
6-Alfredo César Torres-Paiva Raposo P/P Austin Cooper S
7-Rui Martins Silva-??? Carvalho P/P Alfa Romeo Zagato
8-Manuel Gião-???? Fernandes P/P Austin Cooper S
9-Augusto Palma-Fernando Pinto Basto P/P Morris Cooper S
10-José Lickfold Silva-???? Faria Morris Cooper S

Although I have made some research about this rally all the reports I know don't bring the co-drivers names. So, these ones, are taken from sources published here in the forum.

Regards
jorge

[januszsz]

1) Usually they made separate classifications by groups, not a general one, so it's possible that Jean Rolland has won one group and Aaltonen the other.
....
Regards
jorge

Thank you Jorge for precious answers!
About those separate classifications in Coupe des Alpes you are right they both won their own categories but those British sources differ o/a (overall), category and class classifications. They (books) wrote Aaaltonen 1st o/a and The Motor magazine published overall classification where the winner is Aaltonen and second is Rolland. It looks like UK against France "war".
Warm regards
Janusz

[januszsz]

3) I think we've discussed it here at it seems that Sardinia Rally has made part of the championship
Regards
jorge

I remember the fact of dicussion on that subject, but it was in "old forum" era. I have no idea how to get into the old forum! Many thanks in advance for wise advice.
Regards
Janusz

[FAL]

Thank you Jorge for precious answers!
About those separate classifications in Coupe des Alpes you are right they both won their own categories but those British sources differ o/a (overall), category and class classifications. They (books) wrote Aaaltonen 1st o/a and The Motor magazine published overall classification where the winner is Aaltonen and second is Rolland. It looks like UK against France "war".
Warm regards
Janusz

There would have been no official "first overall". As Jorge has said, winners were declared for Touring and GT categories separately (and the most prestigious award/target was a "Coupe" for being clean of road penalties 3 years running). BMC sources refer to Aaltonen "winning" in 63 as if he was 1st O/A. Only comparison of actual times between winners of Touring and GT categories will show who was unofficial "overall winner". Under current law, if BMC advertised Aaltonen as outright winner it would be an offence - but no one would have taken notice then!
It would be further complicated because under the Appendix J that applied to the end of 1965, saloon cars modified beyond the then Group 2 would be classed as Group 3 GT cars. Under the 1966 onwards Appendix J that would not apply and Gp 2 saloons would have to stay "Touring Cars".
Then it appears to get even more complicated because by 1967 the Coupe des Alpes was allowing Group 6 prototypes (Hopkirk "won" in a lightweight Gp 6 Cooper S in 67).
In his new book, Vic Elford mentions that going into the final section in 1966 he had lower penalties (in a Touring car - a Group 2 Lotus Cortina) than the GT leader when his engine went. (It was then he decided to leave Ford at the end of the year). Jean Roland is usually recognised as the 66 winner but I'm not sure whether his Alfa GTA (a car newly homologated for 1966 with lightweight panels etc for the European Touring Car [racing] Championship, replacing the GTV) was in Gp 2 Touring category.
Isn't history complicated?!

[januszsz]

There would have been no official "first overall". As Jorge has said, winners were declared for Touring and GT categories separately (and the most prestigious award/target was a "Coupe" for being clean of road penalties 3 years running). BMC sources refer to Aaltonen "winning" in 63 as if he was 1st O/A. Only comparison of actual times between winners of Touring and GT categories will show who was unofficial "overall winner". Under current law, if BMC advertised Aaltonen as outright winner it would be an offence - but no one would have taken notice then!
It would be further complicated because under the Appendix J that applied to the end of 1965, saloon cars modified beyond the then Group 2 would be classed as Group 3 GT cars. Under the 1966 onwards Appendix J that would not apply and Gp 2 saloons would have to stay "Touring Cars".
Then it appears to get even more complicated because by 1967 the Coupe des Alpes was allowing Group 6 prototypes (Hopkirk "won" in a lightweight Gp 6 Cooper S in 67).
In his new book, Vic Elford mentions that going into the final section in 1966 he had lower penalties (in a Touring car - a Group 2 Lotus Cortina) than the GT leader when his engine went. (It was then he decided to leave Ford at the end of the year). Jean Roland is usually recognised as the 66 winner but I'm not sure whether his Alfa GTA (a car newly homologated for 1966 with lightweight panels etc for the European Touring Car [racing] Championship, replacing the GTV) was in Gp 2 Touring category.
Isn't history complicated?!

You are right FAL pointing that Coupe des Alpes was a specific event. The goal was to win the Cup. There were two categories and two classifiacations. And it belongs to Coupe des Alpes tradition. But as a round of ERC the rally should point the overall winner. And in fact you can easily find Alpine Rally overall results in newspapers from that period. I don't know how the ERC scoring system looked in 1963, but later in 1966 it was a combination of overall and class points added together. If it (soring system) was alike in 1963 overall classifaction was necessary to calculate properly who is the European Champion.
Regards
Janusz

[Kaps]

Please, does anyone know the name(s) of the entrant(s) for the Datsun team at 1976 Safari and Acropolis?

Thanks.

[jrally]

Please, does anyone know the name(s) of the entrant(s) for the Datsun team at 1976 Safari and Acropolis?

Thanks.

As allways D.T.Dobie & Co. for the Safari and N.J.Theoharakis S.A. for Acropolis !

Regards
jorge