Rally History (part II)

[Giorgio]

Thank you , Rin for the results and the definitive explanation....

Sorry, Janusz for my mistake...

Regards

Giorgio

[januszsz]

There is no reason to be sorry Jorge. Now it's clear that it was a different rally, but we have it's complete result. Thank you RiN for explanation and for 1951-52 results.
There are two more questions on subjet of rallies consecutive numbers:
1. Rallye Deutschland. In 1953 German's ERC round was Travemunde, then in 1954 Wiesbaden, followed in 1955 by Nurburgring and in 1956 again Wiesbaden, since 1958 I have it named as Rallye Deutschland. Are those 1953-56 rallies completely different events or we can call them Deutschland Rallies or so? Are we able to give them consecutive numbers?
2. Rallye de Geneve. I found in "old" thread that 1956 edition was numbered as 25th and then the nex one in 1957 was 14th. Which one is correctly named.
Regards
Janusz

[jrally]

There is no reason to be sorry Jorge. Now it's clear that it was a different rally, but we have it's complete result. Thank you RiN for explanation and for 1951-52 results.
There are two more questions on subjet of rallies consecutive numbers:
1. Rallye Deutschland. In 1953 German's ERC round was Travemunde, then in 1954 Wiesbaden, followed in 1955 by Nurburgring and in 1956 again Wiesbaden, since 1958 I have it named as Rallye Deutschland. Are those 1953-56 rallies completely different events or we can call them Deutschland Rallies or so? Are we able to give them consecutive numbers?
2. Rallye de Geneve. I found in "old" thread that 1956 edition was numbered as 25th and then the nex one in 1957 was 14th. Which one is correctly named.
Regards
Janusz

My opinion, Janusz, it's although they are all named Rallye of Deutschland they are different rallyes. Wiesbaden has nothing to do with Nurburgring and I think for instance in 68 was the Lyon-Charbonnières-Sttutgart or something like that.
For Geneve I have the 28th edition in 1959.

Regards
jorge

[FAL]

Rally Deutschland is a very recent creation (by the standards of on here!) and only dates back a few years of the current WRC era. What is now called Deutschland is effectively a combination of the Koln-Ahrweiler and Hunsruck rallies and a few other stages. Both those were International rallies in their own right for many years (and popular with UK crews).
I think the last "iteration" of the "Lyons etc..." rally was "Lyons-Charbonieres-Stuttgart-Solitude".
We have simple names for rallies now!

[Kaps]

Can someone please answer these questions about 1976 World Rally Championship;

1.Safari Rally, how many time controls? How many starters (64 or 65?)

2. Acropolis Rally, how many stages?

3. Rallye San Remo, how many stages?


Thank you!

[januszsz]

Thank you Jorge and FAL!
Janusz

[jrally]

Can someone please answer these questions about 1976 World Rally Championship;

1.Safari Rally, how many time controls? How many starters (64 or 65?)

2. Acropolis Rally, how many stages?

3. Rallye San Remo, how many stages?


Thank you!

1.Safari Rally, how many time controls? ???
How many starters (64 or 65?) some say 64, some say 65

(I will make a research later, at night)

2. Acropolis Rally, how many stages? 51 of which 5 cancelled

3. Rallye San Remo, how many stages? 37

regards
jorge

[kraut]

Rally Deutschland is a very recent creation (by the standards of on here!) and only dates back a few years of the current WRC era. What is now called Deutschland is effectively a combination of the Koln-Ahrweiler and Hunsruck rallies and a few other stages.

Thats not quite correct. As jrally posted earlier, from the fifties to the late Seventies the title 'Deutschland-Rallye' has been an additonal title awarded to one chosen German rally, each year for a different event, f.i Rallye Wiesbaden or Stuttgart-Lyon-Charbonnieres or others.

In 1982 the first real Deutschland-Rallye has been organised by ADAC with the aim to be part of World Rallye Championship. This went on until 1984. But the problem was, that there are two different Automoblile-Clubs in Germany, which did not have the best contact to each other. ADAC had more money and influence. But AvD was organising Hunsrück-Rallye, which had been the Top-Rally in Germany in the Eighties. ADAC noticed, that it a World Championship Rally was not within reach at that moment. So in 1985 an European-Championship-event, the Saarland-Rallye had been renamed Deutschland-Rallye in order to rise in the coefficient in ERC. The top-coefficient has been reached within short time. And Rallye Deutschland had been one of the top-ERC-events for a long time. But ERC never had a very big value in Top-class rallying.

In the end of the nineties, when domestic rallying in Germany went down, it was difficult for the organisers of Hunsrück to keep on with the high standard of their rally and to raise the necessary money for it. But still they had the very good contacts to get the permit for the Baumholder stages. So new negotiations between ADAC and AvD had been made, because FIA has signalised, that there is a real chance reaching WRC-honours. In 2001 it has been the first time, that Baumholder had been a vital part of Rallye Deutschland. In 2002 they had reached their aim to be part of WRC.

Rallye Köln-Ahrweiler never has counted to any championship and never had been connected to Rallye Deutschland in any way. It had been a highly rated no-pacenote-event mostly on forest stages until 1987 and now it is a special stage tarmac rallye for historic cars (called Youngtimer)

[FAL]

I think we are at cross purposes in use of language. In tracking the national name being attached to a country's premier rally as we understand it today (which I think is what the record keepers on here are trying to do), is not the current Deutschland Rally really the only one that warrants the name?
No one I knew who did Koln-Arhweiler would have described it as a forest rally by our standards. Certainly it used some unsurfaced roads in the vineyards (which is why UK crews liked it, as it was not a pure tarmac rally). It does not translate directly into one day of the current tarmac Rally Deutschland but we tend to think in terms of the way a rally in a particular region disappears and another (or part of a WRC rally) emerges in its place.
The 24 Uren van Ieper was effectively Belgium's premier rally for many many years (and a coefficient 20 ERC round) despite what other Belgian organisers such as Boucles de Spa might have wished. When Belgium was looking at bidding for a WRC round it would have effectively been Ieper and Rallye de Wallonie combined.

I could not agree the ERC never had a big value in top class rallying. Until the WRC for drivers was created (1977?) the ECR was the only championship in town. Throughout the classic rally era of the 60s there were few events outside Europe that attracted manufacturers and if they wanted championships to advertise they had to contest the ERC. The results were important then. Only later did it fall into much less significance, contested only by teams that were rarely full "works" (and who even notices it today?).

[Kaps]

Thanks jorge!

To continue with 1976;
Here's what I managed to reconstruct for Lancia's participation in that season:

1.Monte Carlo
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
Waldegard-Thorszelius Lancia Stratos HF
Pinto-Bernacchini Lancia Stratos HF

Team Chardonnet(?):
Darniche-Mahe Lancia Stratos HF

2.Swedish
Lancia Alitalia:
Waldegard-Thorszelius Lancia Stratos HF
Lampinen-Hertz Lancia Stratos HF

3.Portugal
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
Pinto-Bernacchini Lancia Stratos HF

4.Safari
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
Waldegard-Thorszelius Lancia Stratos HF
Preston jr.-Lyall Lancia Stratos HF

5. Acropolis
Lancia Alitalia:
Waldegard-Thorszelius Lancia Stratos HF
Pinto-Bernacchini Lancia Stratos HF
Pregliasco-Garzoglio Lancia Stratos HF

6. Maroc
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
(only works Lancia?)

7.1000 Lakes
no Lancias?

8. San Remo
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari- Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
Waldegard-Thorszelius Lancia Stratos HF
Pinto-Bernacchini Lancia Stratos HF
"Tony"-Mannini Lancia Stratos HF (works entry?)

9. Corse
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF
Team Chardonnet(?):
Darniche-Mahe Lancia Stratos HF

Serpaggi-Subrini Lancia Stratos HF(entrant?)

10. RAC
Lancia Alitalia:
Munari-Maiga Lancia Stratos HF

jorge, (or anyone else who might know) is this complete/correct?
PS I'm only interested in works and most important privateer entries.
Thank you.