American rally rules

[Tomi]

Now in the last 8 years I have pushed hard on the idea of the easy power, with broad torque that 2 cars have, along with their size, makes them very smart choice for boys because they don't need to have a crazy motor with a narrower power band, and since they don't have a narrow power band, then they don't need to buy crazy---but FUN---close ratio dog boxes.

These 2 cars are Volvo 240 and Ford Sierra, both with the 2,3 L, 8v turbo motors and there has been maybe 7-8 boys building Sierror, and 5-6 with 240 Volvo who I've helped with parts and motors and suspension which we hope will one day be done and out in the woods---if they can afford the entry fees and all the safety equipment.

Sounds interesting, the driver exchange thing was good idea too, its good to learn different type of surfaces, it would be easy to include some "pacenote seminar" maybe drive coaching too.

[cal]

This means for some guys the life of their harnesses will be maybe 4 or 6 events, and the life of their new HANS thing might also be 2 years or 4-6 events.

Yeah, new rules are everywhere. There's a big discussion here about whether or not making HANS mandatory in certain classes, but no desicion has been made. Over here HANS go for about € 1000, crazy.

Before i drove always Saab V4 which med tänke på den låg nivån som råder härborta I had some preetty OK results once I got a ''riktig'' motor with dubbel blås toppar och korsinsug.
Nufurtiden sitten en Cosworth Sierra i 4wd trim sittande där i väntan på tid och peng.

You can go far with korsinsug! The driver exchange program or idea sounds really fun, I'll check your site out after the weekend. And since I'm 21 and single I won't have to worry about a wife putting her foot down.

Cal, over 300 Euros per tire for rally studded tires? I assume that is for the little bitty tires used by most cars. What would the cost be for my big fat Mustang? And how many would I need?

Yepp, for studded tyres. I assume you would use the same on your Mustang, 16" if you could find the right rims to fit! And you would probably need a few, depending on your HP.

Can you tell us how many gravel tyres you typically use at an event? How much you pay for your gravels?

There are a lot more options when gravel tyres are concerned - everything from re-tread to WRC-tyres. Good, new Michelin, Pirelli etc. are about € 250-280.

See you all after the weekend, I'm off competing in Sweden's best winter event, in Sälen fjällen if you know where that is, Jan V? 260 cars of which 142 are Gr. H, tuned 2WD. Have a nice weekend!

[RichardM]

I find it quite odd that there is no "budget class" based on old cars, In my point of view that is the first stepin stone to the sport belive that would bring more people involved, the more participents the bigger the chance is that there is someone really talented. I understand John V points very well.

In US rally in all of the sanctioning bodies, you are allowed to spend as much money as you want. Rally America does require novice drivers to start with a low power 2 wheel drive car to try and keep the crashing down. NASA Rally Sport will allow a novice to start in a WRC car almost. I am not sure about Rally New York.

However, the biggest cost is not the car, well once you have it built any way, but the travel. The two closest events to me are 100 Acre Wood and Rally Tennessee at about 600 miles or just under 1000 km away. As typical for Americans, I use a big pickup that cruises along at over 100 kph. Yes we know a small, low geared vehicle would work, but it just would not go as fast. Our fuel is still relatively cheap at just over $3 per US gallon (sorry I am not awake enough to convert to Euros per liter yet) but at 10 miles per gallon, just the fuel to get to the two closest events is $400 or so. Then add in at least 2 nights of hotel bills even if it is a one day event plus a day of vacation from work and the costs just add up.

There is an informal group trying to promote 2 wheel drive. And Rally America has modeled Group 2 (small engine, 2 wheel drive) after the Scandinavian Group F rules using a weight to displacement rule. NRS introduce a Spec Focus class to try and keep costs down.

The first stepping stone to having more people involved is to have more rallys closer. Some of us are trying to organize events nearer to population centers but it is hard to do as we don't have enough entrants to pay for the costs of the rally. So to have more rallys, we need more people with cars. But to get people with cars we need more rallys. ARRG, it makes my head hurt.

The state of rallying in the center of the north American continent known at the US is not near as bad as John would have you believe. Nor are the organizers and sanctioning bodies stuck in the past.

By the way Cal, I have available lots of 15", 16" and even 17" rims for the Mustang. They are all very wide though. I typically buy tires for off-roading truck racing instead of rally tires as rally tires are just not wide enough. This is one of the problems rallying a big fat American car that was never considered for rally. But it is fun to drive!
Richard

[Tomi]

In US rally in all of the sanctioning bodies, you are allowed to spend as much money as you want. Rally America does require novice drivers to start with a low power 2 wheel drive car to try and keep the crashing down. NASA Rally Sport will allow a novice to start in a WRC car almost. I am not sure about Rally New York.

However, the biggest cost is not the car, well once you have it built any way, but the travel. The two closest events to me are 100 Acre Wood and Rally Tennessee at about 600 miles or just under 1000 km away. As typical for Americans, I use a big pickup that cruises along at over 100 kph. Yes we know a small, low geared vehicle would work, but it just would not go as fast. Our fuel is still relatively cheap at just over $3 per US gallon (sorry I am not awake enough to convert to Euros per liter yet) but at 10 miles per gallon, just the fuel to get to the two closest events is $400 or so. Then add in at least 2 nights of hotel bills even if it is a one day event plus a day of vacation from work and the costs just add up.

There is an informal group trying to promote 2 wheel drive. And Rally America has modeled Group 2 (small engine, 2 wheel drive) after the Scandinavian Group F rules using a weight to displacement rule. NRS introduce a Spec Focus class to try and keep costs down.

The first stepping stone to having more people involved is to have more rallys closer. Some of us are trying to organize events nearer to population centers but it is hard to do as we don't have enough entrants to pay for the costs of the rally. So to have more rallys, we need more people with cars. But to get people with cars we need more rallys. ARRG, it makes my head hurt.

The state of rallying in the center of the north American continent known at the US is not near as bad as John would have you believe. Nor are the organizers and sanctioning bodies stuck in the past.

By the way Cal, I have available lots of 15", 16" and even 17" rims for the Mustang. They are all very wide though. I typically buy tires for off-roading truck racing instead of rally tires as rally tires are just not wide enough. This is one of the problems rallying a big fat American car that was never considered for rally. But it is fun to drive!
Richard

If the travelling is a problem why not split the country in different divisions that would run lets say 5 division qualifying events from witch lets say 20 best could start in the national championship.
And make a 3-4 day lasting national championship in wich every day would be a separate event, that would mean the end if somebody would get tech/mech problems he would be out only from 1 event.

[RichardM]

If the travelling is a problem why not split the country in different divisions that would run lets say 5 division qualifying events from witch lets say 20 best could start in the national championship.
And make a 3-4 day lasting national championship in wich every day would be a separate event, that would mean the end if somebody would get tech/mech problems he would be out only from 1 event.

Actually both Rally America and NASA Rally Sport do that. NRS splits the country into two sides. Rally America, in addition to the national championship where Travis Pastrana, Ken Block etc. compete, also has a Regional Rally Championship. RA divides the country into Northwest, Southwest, Central and Eastern. The SCCA as a comparison is divided into 8 regions. The 100 Acre Wood rally which is run very close to the actual center of the US has been the Regional Rally Championship event where the top 3 in each class from each region are invited.

I'm proud to say that slow old me finished 2nd in the Central Division in Group 5 this year. Mark Utecht in his Mustang finished 1st. That is also where we finished in the regional rally championship. But we both admit that is because we were the only Group 5 regional entries. No one else made the tow. Maybe the roar of our mighty V8 engines scared them off.

[Tomi]

Actually both Rally America and NASA Rally Sport do that. NRS splits the country into two sides. Rally America, in addition to the national championship where Travis Pastrana, Ken Block etc. compete, also has a Regional Rally Championship. RA divides the country into Northwest, Southwest, Central and Eastern. The SCCA as a comparison is divided into 8 regions. The 100 Acre Wood rally which is run very close to the actual center of the US has been the Regional Rally Championship event where the top 3 in each class from each region are invited.

I'm proud to say that slow old me finished 2nd in the Central Division in Group 5 this year. Mark Utecht in his Mustang finished 1st. That is also where we finished in the regional rally championship. But we both admit that is because we were the only Group 5 regional entries. No one else made the tow. Maybe the roar of our mighty V8 engines scared them off.

Ahaa, normal here is to start with rwd normally Group F then maybe Gr n then Gr N then if there is talent they normaly drive WRC in Finnish championship and at the same time PWRC or selected WRC events but normally they dont go to drive international events before they have the chance to do good result (top 3).
But I think most important work does the clubs, from where i am home we have 2 clubs, http://www.espoonurheiluautoilijat.fi/ this one is more focused on track racing but has rally in the program too, their best known driver is Kimi Räikkönen.
The other club is Tapiolan Urheiluautoilijat, http://www.tapua.fi/ this one focus more on rally, best known driver from this club is Marcus Grönholm.
The clubs arrange often internal events and sometimes bigger events too, also by joining the clubs it's easy to get the first touch to the sport by co-driving for instance before get an own car.

[L5->R5/CR]

Ahaa, normal here is to start with rwd normally Group F then maybe Gr n then Gr N then if there is talent they normaly drive WRC in Finnish championship and at the same time PWRC or selected WRC events but normally they dont go to drive international events before they have the chance to do good result (top 3).
But I think most important work does the clubs, from where i am home we have 2 clubs, http://www.espoonurheiluautoilijat.fi/ this one is more focused on track racing but has rally in the program too, their best known driver is Kimi Räikkönen.
The other club is Tapiolan Urheiluautoilijat, http://www.tapua.fi/ this one focus more on rally, best known driver from this club is Marcus Grönholm.
The clubs arrange often internal events and sometimes bigger events too, also by joining the clubs it's easy to get the first touch to the sport by co-driving for instance before get an own car.

We are beginning to work on something similar to that in Colorado.

We have a fairly reasonable number of cars but not fully active competitors (25 competitors active in 2007 out of 47 cars that are legal/being built).

The idea is to formulate a structure to get people out to events and to be active, whether crewing, driving, or co-driving. If we can get a reliable competitor base of a moderate size then semi-regular organized social functions and collective networking is the next step. Getting this to be self sustaining is the major goal.


Currently we only have one real rally in CO. But we also have 5 dirt hill climbs (similar in format and atmosphere to a local 1 day club event in Europe) and a moderate active "rally cross" series (not to be confused with real European rally cross, this is for street cars, in dirt fields, with top speeds below 75 kmph). By uniting all of these groups/rallying types under one structure and integrating the competitors we are hoping to develop a club structure more similar to that in Europe.

Once things appear to be healthy the focus will be on more events as we have a lot of potential for future growth here as long as we can generate the competitor support.

[RichardM]

Kevin and the rest of the group in Colorado are certainly giving it the old college try. Several years ago, we had 17 cars in the Dallas area and were able to have a small local series. Then people moved away, got married, etc. But we are also trying to build the club feeling.

Of course, until they start selling reindeer milk at the local grocery, I doubt we will turn out another Marcus Grönholm.

[LastDitchRacing]

Thought I'd chime in on the tire issue since I didn't see it answered by a competitor.

The tire of choice at 100 Acre Wood(and at most snow/ice events) are the Yokohama AO-34 snow/ice rally tire. It's an incredible tire and quite resistant to puncture. They're best when there's a bit of snow or slush on the road.

They're pricey, but worth it.

We've had excellent luck with Michelin X-Ice and Yokohama IG-10's on ice in the past. We had a flat with an X-Ice in Michigan which lost us a lot of time.

Some folks ran Bridgestone Blizzaks at 100AW, but I don't think they were the best choice.

My co-driver Dave drove on studded continentals in the Challenge Sur Glace in Quebec. These are similar to WRC studded tires. He loved them on the ice, but they would tear up our stages and be cost prohibitive.

Street studs would really be of no help to us on stage, so the fact that they're banned in most states where we race is not of consequence.

Regards, John

[RichardM]

John, I heard Dave Parps say that 17 of the national competitors were on Nokian tires. But then he sells those so maybe he was counting some cars twice.
Richard