American rally rules

[M. Hurst]

as the speeds increase ......

That brings up another problem...road use permits and the difficulty in finding good, technical roads. It seems that more and more, the roads we receive permission to use have been improved and straightened for use by large trucks.

Icy roads, no snow banks, no studs, and still 117kph average speed:

http://www.flatovercrest.com/2008/02...onboard-1.html

[cal]

Well, if you ask me Ken Block would be safer with proper tyres in that video.

The roads you have are more dangerous to drive when icy on tyres that are not meant to be driven on that surface, than they would be with studs. If the average speeds are too high, use chicanes on long straights and the problem is solved. Right now I assume you can't use chicanes to get speeds down because no one would be able to stop in time...

Try to have a competition with real tyres and I think the drivers wouldn't want to go back to non-studded tyres.

[janvanvurpa]

I totally agree with you, driving on snow and ice without proper tyres just isn't fun in the way rallying should be fun. It's fun in a go slow, play in the snow sort of way, but not the sort of enjoyment you want from the sport.

Well ever since I've been doing this since '84, the way I describe what it is to people who are curious is ''You know what fun you had when it snowed and you'd go out and drive sideways like a crazy in big parking lots till the cops would chase you away? ''Full-garv! only longer and more intense!''
Then they understand and ask more.

1200 dollars for entering an event?

For so called ''National Championship'' events.
lägg till maybe 160 bucks för Jemba notes, and then add several hundred more per day if you want them to score you for the lokala DM type events that run simultaneous (like SM was supposed to run with VM i Varmland)

What size event is that,

Maybe 31-33 cars in the ''Championship'' event and maybe 10-12 more behind in the ''Club'' event. Typicaly well more than half to two thirds are various year Subaru Imprezas, an anomoly not seen anywhere else in the civilised world.

and are all events priced the same?

More or less all the Rally America events have at least that price.
There is a second Organisation that also sanctions rallys in USA called NASA Rallysport and their event entries are typically less.

That's pretty hefty!

Yep for a little event way smaller than any DM i Mellansverige in entry numbers and quality it's a lot, but worse is the rising equipment costs all driven by vår nykommen gäst i hans befattning som ''skyddare av hans boss' förmögenhet''
. Now remember that Rally is small here and the distances easily 4-6 times the distances in Sweden (OK well soppa for tow rig is less than half the cost per liter but TIME to tow is still crazy) and many ''normal'' people might do maybe 2 or max 3 events in a year, OK.
Now the harnesses must be thrown away in 2 years for SFI approved events and 5 years for FIA approved belts, the helmet rules have sharpened, the seats must be FIA soon or now (I can't) and the latest Thousand dollar bomb is the requirement for the HANS device which as far as i can see is not required in any but the A8 cars in a couple of countries last I checked.

This means for some guys the life of their harnesses will be maybe 4 or 6 events, and the life of their new HANS thing might also be 2 years or 4-6 events.
And the open joke is that the approval ''Foundation'' SFI is a organ funded entirely by the MAKERS of Safety equipment and even an idiot can see instantly that the rules saying the belts or HANS or whatever are dead after 2 years directly benefits the equipment maker-----who fund the Foundation.
Skumpt som faaaen.

What kind of mileage do you get for that and do you get recce?

Tradionally in Champignonskit events since the mid 90s it was supposed to be a minimum of 120 miles or just under 200km. Earlier than that some events went longer. There are always stage cancellations however and sometimes there are cancelled stages for things like tactics, the Subaru rally Team USA's antics have led to some serious condemnation and occasionally a slap on the wrist for things like Displaying the Rec Cross sign---which immediately stops a stage and it becomes annuled--nobody gets a stage time--conveniently when the Subaru no1 car had a puncture---but the lame excuse was ''there was a snowmobile running along a trail next to the stage road. (Yeah well there are 5,000 trees standing next to the stage road too, why not display red cross for them? Oh, no flat!!)

I've heard they use computerised notes in North America, but I'm not sure.

Yep Arne Johansson from Karlskoga should be a rich man with the prices that the place that rents his Jemba machine charges the organisers of the events, but I read he rents the machine for smulor.

Now if you saw the average speed of the majority of the drivers here I am certain you'd say Herregud they need to worry about to ger järnet i stället för buuying ''driver aids''

What kind of car did you drive?

Haven't driven a rally since '97. Have been kart-läsare a couple of times, but since then I have moved from the skit-hål Boston hem till Seattle, bought a house, concentrated on my little business, and gotten married and had 2 kids, one of which will be 3 on the 9th! And all that after I turned 50!
Before i drove always Saab V4 which med tänke på den låg nivån som råder härborta I had some preetty OK results once I got a ''riktig'' motor with dubbel blås toppar och korsinsug.
Nufurtiden sitten en Cosworth Sierra i 4wd trim sittande där i väntan på tid och peng.

Here's some incar from a Volvo 240, gives you an idea of what kind of speed you average in a 2WD car with studded tyres, on a fast stage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYkMX7Kz7Gs

Hey I've been a good agitator here i Rallyvärleden mesta U-land for GruppH and Finska F-cup and I'm happy that many of the guys have become tuned into the Swedish and Finnish rally scene, and have already begun to use what they see on Youtube from därborta as the standard of what they think is GOOD and what they'd like to see here and to do.

Seems more and more guys are now deciding to build simpler 2wd mostly RWD cars that I know of--but maybe that's not surprising because I build suspension and motors mostly for 2wd guys, in fact just now I'm in the middle of or just supplied suspension for AE86 Corrolla, 3 Volvo 240s (nu i 50mm utförande) and a couple or 3 Ford Sierror, and doing a nice 240 rally motor for one boy .

As for speeds on snow, my first awareness of a WRC event was the fight between Blomqvist and Per Eklund back in 1976, sista gången 96:an vann i VM. It was completely unbelievable but it worked!!!
10 years later I was the last man to drive a 96 i VM at 1986 Olympus WRC.

Hej Cal, varför inte kom över till vår ''vänligare'' forum och hälsa på?

Kollo in hos http://www.rallyanarchy.com och säg till dina kompisar oxo att titta in.
Lång term plannerna är att försök att lägga grunden till nån slags ''exchange driver'' program so guys of normal income can go over both ways and get a taste of what its like elsewhere. We are already talking with some crazy Finns who is deep into the plans to bring 5-6 fast F-cup boys over and he liked my idea of maybe doing a vaction--and so the wife won't murder you you say it in the right order----and see San Francisco, Seattle and Vancouver and the fantastic nature between them, and also do a local rally.

Hälsa på!

John V agitatören som alltid.

[Tomi]

Kollo in hos http://www.rallyanarchy.com och säg till dina kompisar oxo att titta in.
Lång term plannerna är att försök att lägga grunden till nån slags ''exchange driver'' program so guys of normal income can go over both ways and get a taste of what its like elsewhere. We are already talking with some crazy Finns who is deep into the plans to bring 5-6 fast F-cup boys over and he liked my idea of maybe doing a vaction--and so the wife won't murder you you say it in the right order----and see San Francisco, Seattle and Vancouver and the fantastic nature between them, and also do a local rally.

Hälsa på!

John V agitatören som alltid.

Very good idea, its important to have a class where the cars are relatively cheep so that many as possible get to drive, how many stage km is the local rallies there about? btw din svenska e jävla bra.

[RichardM]

Cal, over 300 Euros per tire for rally studded tires? I assume that is for the little bitty tires used by most cars. What would the cost be for my big fat Mustang? And how many would I need? My solution is to simply not go where there is a high probability of snow. Texans and Mustangs and snow don't mix. Heck, Texans and snow don't mix regardless of the car. We had heavy rain today followed by heavy snowfall all with the temperature at above freezing. The roads were fine but it still took me 2 hours to get home through traffic in Dallas. And the TV news is making it sound like the end of the world. By the way, I did finish 100 Acre Wood rally and only 1 hour behind Ken Block. I was using a BFG A/T tire which I have been told is completely unsuitable for ice. Sounds about right to me.

As to Rally America calling a stage to suit given competitors, that is totally false. Anyone making such a statement is completely ignorant of the facts in the case where the snow mobile was racing along the side of the rally car and threatening to cut in front. The whole incident was captured on video and fully reviewed by the stewards.

And if Rally America were to be favoring Subarus, which team would they favor? As has been pointed out by the same person who claims Rally America is favoring Subarus, most of the teams are running Subarus. And what is John saying about studs? My comprehension of Scandinavian languages is very poor since my Grandfather chose not to teach any of his children his native Norwegian.

If any one would like to see an example of a small regional rally in the USA, check out our site. Simply Google "Rallye de Paris". Instead of the high cost event in France, the first site that comes up is our little event for the clubman. Or just go to http://www.rallyengr.com
Richard
Car 701

[turoc]

The amount of tyres used is really a question of class and budget, you can make 160km of stages with 6 tyres on good roads, if you're on a really tight budget. Many of the hobby-driving rally drivers drive on used tyres, again it's all about money though new tyres really make a difference.

Can you tell us how many gravel tyres you typically use at an event? How much you pay for your gravels?

Very good idea, its important to have a class where the cars are relatively cheep so that many as possible get to drive, how many stage km is the local rallies there about? btw din svenska e jävla bra.

The latest trend in USA rallying is to go out and buy/build 4wd turbo cars 50% above driver skill level. Not many events have low budget cars particularly with Rally America. Usually 75% of the field are what JVL reffers to as "Subarat"
If its a national event which consists of 2 regionals it will be the same as the national roughly 100miles of SS. (Most RallyAmerica regionals are national events divided in two) If it is a regional race it is anywhere from 50 to 75ish miles.

[janvanvurpa]

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As to Rally America calling a stage to suit given competitors, that is totally false. Anyone making such a statement is completely ignorant of the facts in the case where the snow mobile was racing along the side of the rally car and threatening to cut in front. The whole incident was captured on video and fully reviewed by the stewards.

Dear readers, it should be noted that Richard here rabidly "Pro Rally America" and in his book, they can do no wrong.

To Richard: Don't pretend to misread or attempt to put words in my mouth.
I did not say that Rally America "called" or canceled a stage to suit the Pastrana/Edström car, may as well say it rather that attempting to be coy.

(Readers, this is a part of the problem here, most of the old dinosaurs in the Organising Commitees and "Federation" Official positions know each other for decades, and know details of incidents of cheating and rule bending, but NOTHING is ever said aloud)

The incident was in last years season opening event called "Sno-drift" and one one stage the SRTUSA car of Pastrana had a puncture and conveniently "an unknown person" was seen riding a snowmobile on a trail following the stage, and the 199 Patrana car stopped and co-drivern Edström "displayed the Red Cross sign" which under Rally America rules means the stage is immediately stopped and ALL TIMES for THAT STAGE THROWN OUT.
Edström knows the rules perfectly well

Ricvhard reads english well enough for an Engineer to know that is what I said, not that Rally America canceled the stage to favor the Subaru Rally Team USA.

The videos do show a supposedly unknown person riding on a trail parallel to the stage, but as I made clear, what goes on next to the road isn't all that important, the snowmobile made no turns towards the road and it is no more dnger that the thousands of trees lining every meter of every stage.

And if Rally America were to be favoring Subarus, which team would they favor? As has been pointed out by the same person who claims Rally America is favoring Subarus, most of the teams are running Subarus.

It is obvious that Rally America, exactly like SCCA before them (which is not surprising considering the only difference is that Rally America is a corporation owned by one Doug Havir, but key people are the same) is caught in a deep mud-hole: they are dependent on the presence of the Subaru rally Team USA to give their events a vaneer of specialness, it is their only "draw" and they cannot be particularly strict with the Goose Laying the Golden Egg.

Anybody who wishes could talk to Andrew Pinker about his view of the "Red Cross" incident which should have resulted in Disqualification and a huge fine.

And US Mitsubishi driver Dennis Martin from Green Bay Wisconsin said a short while back on some other forum that he met the "unknown" man on the snowmobile at the Las Vegas PRI Show, but of course he declined to identify just who he was and what postion he had with which crew.
Americans seem to prefer to play games of "I know something you don't know...."
Skumpt.

And what is John saying about studs? My comprehension of Scandinavian languages is very poor since my Grandfather chose not to teach any of his children his native Norwegian.

Nothing for you to worry about, your friend Hurst has been here and given us all the "Party Line", so everything is now all smooothed over.
Mostly i was saying you and Hurst and all the Rally America guys are all big studs. 8)

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength!

[RichardM]

As you can tell, John does not like me nor does John like any one or thing that has the name Rally America associated with it. Hence John claims I am an old dinosaur and firmly embedded with all the old people. Well, I confess, I am older than John and have been involved with rally in the US longer than John. I am also an organizer and have been an organizer with SCCA, Rally America, NARA/NARRA and even consider NSR to list all the major organizing groups in the US. I am rabidly in favor of the sport of rally and not any one sanctioning body. If any one wishes a recommendation of my contribution to rally in the US, I suggest they contact almost any one in rally in the US except John. And I even serviced for John once. He was such a boor that was enough.

As you can see, John mocks the lack of ability to read Swedish. I wish I could read more languages faster but I can not. So if any one wishes to tell the rest of us what John is saying about studs so we can supply the truth, it would be appreciated.

[Tomi]

The latest trend in USA rallying is to go out and buy/build 4wd turbo cars 50% above driver skill level. Not many events have low budget cars particularly with Rally America. Usually 75% of the field are what JVL reffers to as "Subarat"
If its a national event which consists of 2 regionals it will be the same as the national roughly 100miles of SS. (Most RallyAmerica regionals are national events divided in two) If it is a regional race it is anywhere from 50 to 75ish miles.

I find it quite odd that there is no "budget class" based on old cars, In my point of view that is the first stepin stone to the sport belive that would bring more people involved, the more participents the bigger the chance is that there is someone really talented. I understand John V points very well.

[janvanvurpa]

I find it quite odd that there is no "budget class" based on old cars, In my point of view that is the first stepin stone to the sport belive that would bring more people involved, the more participents the bigger the chance is that there is someone really talented. I understand John V points very well.

Tomi since 1992 we have had a 2wd Open class and for a few years it looked like it would be a good hard field and it did draw some pretty good fields.
The old rules in the beginning had engine limits of 2,0 liter when the motor was 16v, 2,2 liter when 3v, 2.4l if 2 valve and if the motor had pushrods, then you could have a 0,8 factor making a total limit of 3,0liter.

The cars that have done best have been taken from what was the mainstay of North American rally: 1968-1973 Datsun 510 you guys know as Datsun SSS,
Volkswagen Golf II, and Saabs of all sorts from 99 Saabs to Saab 900 and even once in 1995 one National round was won by a Saab 96 V4.

But since the arrival of the Impreza 2.5 RS, fewer and fewer people have seemed to look at any 2wd cars as a legitimate car and many many guys have done 3-6 events in a Group 2 (with maybe a shorter final drive and some cam everybody in Europe would find under "Fast Road" cams in a catalog ) car over a two year period, and then "when they've learned every thing about 2wd" then they "move up to play with the Big Boys so they sell their old near stock car and buy a stock-ish Subaru.
And as a result the class has withered in most parts of the country.

We also have a class introduced in 1995 for 2wd cars with either engines greater than allowed in Gp2 or turbocharged engines.

The class which really ought to be the most popular has always been under subscribed with rarely more than 2-3 in the class maximum.

Now in the last 8 years I have pushed hard on the idea of the easy power, with broad torque that 2 cars have, along with their size, makes them very smart choice for boys because they don't need to have a crazy motor with a narrower power band, and since they don't have a narrow power band, then they don't need to buy crazy---but FUN---close ratio dog boxes.

These 2 cars are Volvo 240 and Ford Sierra, both with the 2,3 L, 8v turbo motors and there has been maybe 7-8 boys building Sierror, and 5-6 with 240 Volvo who I've helped with parts and motors and suspension which we hope will one day be done and out in the woods---if they can afford the entry fees and all the safety equipment.