American rally rules

[cal]

Hello all!

I've been interested in American Rallying lately, and watched some footage etc. and I've noticed a few things. Like the lack of studded tyres. It's forbidden, right? But WHY? I saw some incar footage from Ken Block in the 100 Acre Wood rally recently. The stage was really fast, and while non-studded tyres keep the speed down in the corners, it doesn't have quite the same effect when you blast along long straights. In a lot of corners he slides towards the ditch, and with that speed you really can't do much if you come in too fast. With studded tyres I think you would be safer.

Is it to keep speeds down they're not allowed, or is it just because of the road damage they create?

Also, why do a lot of EVOs remove their spoilers/wings on the back?

[L5->R5/CR]

Hello all!

I've been interested in American Rallying lately, and watched some footage etc. and I've noticed a few things. Like the lack of studded tyres. It's forbidden, right? But WHY? I saw some incar footage from Ken Block in the 100 Acre Wood rally recently. The stage was really fast, and while non-studded tyres keep the speed down in the corners, it doesn't have quite the same effect when you blast along long straights. In a lot of corners he slides towards the ditch, and with that speed you really can't do much if you come in too fast. With studded tyres I think you would be safer.

Is it to keep speeds down they're not allowed, or is it just because of the road damage they create?

Also, why do a lot of EVOs remove their spoilers/wings on the back?

The issue of studs is sort of a sore spot in some regards in the US rally community. Essentially, the only true winter rally happens to be held in a state in which studs are outlawed (this brings up a whole different set of arguments but I digress). This prompted one of the sports original sanctioning bodies in the US to simply include in its rules that you cannot use studded tires. Now even just this year there was an even held in New Hampshire, a state in which studs are allowed, that permitted 2wd car to utilize studs. The way the rules work on the issue is that any event that is held in a state in which studs are permitted can apply for a sanction exemption and permit studs to be run in that event. There simply aren't a lot of winter rally events in the US that stand to take advantage of this proviso.

One of the reasons 100 Acre Wood did not apply for a sanction exemption, and thus did not have studs, is that it is not normally a winter event (I am not sure if Missouri allows studs to be used either). Traditionally 100 Acre Wood is a gravel event with occasional drizzle. The ice storm this year caught a lot of teams off guard and while the big teams were able to find snow and ice tires a lot of the clubman entrants were running on gravel tires in all of the snow and ice due to lack of options.

[cal]

I see, that explains it. Thanks. You could debate why studs aren't allowed on road vehicles in some states in the first place, but that's not a motorsport issue.

You say the top teams were able to find snow and ice tyres, what kind of tyres do you use on the winter events? And what makes are mostly used, BF Goodrich/Michelin, Yokohama, Pirelli?

Also, do you know why EVOs remove their back wings?

[janvanvurpa]

Hello all!

I've been interested in American Rallying lately, and watched some footage etc. and I've noticed a few things. Like the lack of studded tyres. It's forbidden, right? But WHY?

The origins of the RULE prohibiting studded tires goes back to the mid 1970s at an event in SCCAs (The organisation who sanctioned US "Nationella Champignonskit" until recently) so called "Pro-Rally Series" held north of SanFrancisco near Clear Lake, California. The dirt there is mostly red-clay and when wet it is seriously like driving on clean ice. In that event a crazy Dutchman living in the US named Hendrik Blok pulled out some studded tires to use cause it had rained and was absurdly slick.
He won by some crazy margin beating everybody badly.

Wednesday after the event a new rule was announced banning studs.
Punkt slut.

Now the rule persists primarily because the guys who bought the remnants of the SCCA rally department (sort of a privatization deal as the SCCA was always and still is 99.5% an amateur road race and "auto-cross" club and the Rally branch had created a lot of problems for the Club due to some unfortunate accidents where 4-5 people were killed on stages and the resulting lawsuits were a big drain on the club) inherited the rule and it has simply become a case of them not wanting to have anybody not in their circle telling them what to do.

It is pitiful small mindedness and tjur-skalle behaviour.
I say this because for 20 years I have asked, and suggested and pushed the idea to merely consider studs based on the popularity and uniqueness of Winter events in Sweden, Norway and Finland.

The answer is always one form or another of "we can't" but when pushed eventually the clique in control has finally admitted "we have never asked" and "we don't want to ask" because "it's the rule and it has always been this way" and essentially admitting "we don't care what the rest of the world does."

The ever declining number of people with 2wd cars bothering to enter the snow event seems not to concern the Company who own the Sanctioning rights.

I saw some incar footage from Ken Block in the 100 Acre Wood rally recently. The stage was really fast, and while non-studded tyres keep the speed down in the corners, it doesn't have quite the same effect when you blast along long straights. In a lot of corners he slides towards the ditch, and with that speed you really can't do much if you come in too fast. With studded tyres I think you would be safer.

Obviously it would be safer and just as obviously it would be more fun.
Remember all the people in North American rallying are all amateurs just playing even if some are spending $25,000 or more (I have heard silly figures of up to 45,000, probably silly exaggeration )per event to the companies preparing the cars, they are still amateurs for the richer teams I guess the idea of spending that sort of money and then getting stuck in a corner for 10 minutes because they slid a half meter wide is OK with them.
Those that pay for the entries (at over 1200 dollars) themselves have voted to skip the event.
I know at least 5 cars in Michigan or very close---a couple of hours tow-- who won't bother to enter.

Is it to keep speeds down they're not allowed, or is it just because of the road damage they create?

The answer really is "That's the way it's always been" and "it's the same for all".

I should note I have done 3 Winter rallys, 2 Canadian Championship events and the old SCCA "Pro=Rally" Championship event Maine Winter rally.
I managed to take the lead in the 2wd Open class Maine event---first time rallying on snow--- but it was in no way FUN, and it was not snow, it was, like the 2 Canadian events, clean blank ICE.

I won't bother now.

[SubaruNorway]

I've seen them use Nokian Hakkapelita just like we use on the road cars over here, but i would not go rallying with those :S

[cal]

Janvanvurpa, you seem to know some Swedish?

The people in charge are too conservative then. I hope you or someone manage to change things. I totally agree with you, driving on snow and ice without proper tyres just isn't fun in the way rallying should be fun. It's fun in a go slow, play in the snow sort of way, but not the sort of enjoyment you want from the sport.

1200 dollars for entering an event? What size event is that, and are all events priced the same? That's pretty hefty! What kind of mileage do you get for that and do you get recce? I've heard they use computerised notes in North America, but I'm not sure.

What kind of car did you drive? Here's some incar from a Volvo 240, gives you an idea of what kind of speed you average in a 2WD car with studded tyres, on a fast stage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYkMX7Kz7Gs

I've seen them use Nokian Hakkapelita just like we use on the road cars over here, but i would not go rallying with those :S

Me neither.

[M. Hurst]

Allowing studded tires is an option available via sanction exemption to any Rally America organizer, and studded tires were allowed at a Rally America event in New Hampshire in January.

For those who compete where proper studded tires are allowed, can you give me an estimate of the number of tires typically used, and cost (euro) for 4wd and 2wd cars on 160kms of stage distance?

[cal]

For those who compete where proper studded tires are allowed, can you give me an estimate of the number of tires typically used, and cost (euro) for 4wd and 2wd cars on 160kms of stage distance?

For a top class tyre here in Sweden (BF Goodrich/Michelin, Pirelli & Yokohama) you pay about € 315-370 each for both 15" and 16", depending on taxes.

The studs in these tyres, all three brands, are glued in Sweden. I don't know if the tyres they sell in Norway and Finland are glued there, but all the tyres used in the Swedish Rally are "assembled" here, and so that is the price for them here. If you start driving on these tyres in North America, I assume you will glue the studs in place over there, which might affect the price up or downward.

The amount of tyres used is really a question of class and budget, you can make 160km of stages with 6 tyres on good roads, if you're on a really tight budget. Many of the hobby-driving rally drivers drive on used tyres, again it's all about money though new tyres really make a difference.

I was doing the Swedish Championship event which was to be run on day 2 & 3 of the Swedish Rally behind the WRC-starters, and had to be cancelled due to the conditions - and to that event I had 10 new tyres for my Renault Clio. The length was about 100km and I was expecting to drive on pure frozen gravel.

But ideally, in a national championship, for 160km on a good, icy rally in a 4WD N4 car you would use about 10-16, depending on everything from road conditions to starting position. Will there be gravel if I start as car number 140? Most probably, yes, even if the conditions are perfect. Has it snowed or is there clean ice? There are two different tyres, what we call "tractor-pattern" for when there is snow on top of the ice, and you also have a clean ice-tyre.

You also have to think of preserving the tyres, on winter rallies stages tend to be longer. On a 40km stage it's quite important to be alert to fading tyres, when you feel they begin to fade you have to back off slightly until they regain some posture, then you can push on again.

Hope that answers some of your questions and thoughts, though I suggest you look around and contact some of the companies who are in the studded tyre business if you want to know more about bringing such tyres to the states - I noticed that you are Technical Director for Rally America. I think it would be great for the sport to have a strong championship in the United States and wish you the best with it.

[M. Hurst]

Ice & Snow rallies without studs are a great equalizer...car set up (soft!) and driver skill outshine horsepower...even trick diffs are no use when there's no grip at all. The podium for a snow rally commonly has different faces (Canadians!) than our gravel events...that being said, it's not much to look at from outside the car!

http://www.rally-america.com/thumb.php?pic=1988&max=600

Some of the current U.S. competitors from overseas have told me the same thing...~$500 USD per proper studded tire. An additional $2,000-$8,000 USD for a snow / ice rally seperates the "haves" from "have nots" of (already thin) American rally even farther. It might be workable with a less expensive limited or "spec" studded tire.

"Studless" tires currently used on snow and ice cost $80-$150 USD per tire.

[cal]

Car setup should be soft even with studded tyres, you have softer springs in the winter and raise the ride height to make room for the tyres, though they often touch the inner guards in bumps.

I can see your point, like there's not enough expenses in rallying of today already. How many winter events do you have in North America, all various championships considered? And how many licensed competitors? Aren't there enough competitors for these tyres to work financially - more pros than cons so to speak?

You would probably attract a bigger audience as the speeds increase along with the awe-factor. I think I speak for almost every rally driver in Scandinavia when I say that I'd rather not drive an event in winter conditions with "summer" tyres. I'd love to compete in North America sometime in the future, though.