Independence

[gadjo_dilo]

Everyone played their part. The Western World were just lucky that their part was a bit cleaner than yours. I'm sure if the situations were reversed you wouldn't have come in to save us at great cost of life to everyone and I think this is the only sensible way to think about it.

Have a good weekend

In fact I don't blame you for non-intervention. I can understand it. But for the way your leaders decided for our lives.
And please let me go home. I should have been gone for 10 min.

[Daniel]

In fact I don't blame you for non-intervention. I can understand it. But for the way your leaders decided for our lives.
And please let me go home. I should have been gone for 10 min.

Go home! You're a free man aren't you?

Like I said it's impossible for me to put myself in your position so I shall try to do so no further

[Camelopard]

Go home! You're a free man aren't you?

Ummm, actually no . A free person, yes!

[fandango]

Could you imagine people rioting in London if Scotland declared independance?

That's worth discussing more. Why would they riot, or why wouldn't they? And is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Twenty years ago I couldn't imagine the end of the cold war and then Bing! in the next few years things changed so much.

[BDunnell]

Of course not. It was easier to sacrifice some unknown people from the east. Who had to endure only other 50 years.
Now seriously, I can't understand how USA as a winner of the war accepted the situation.

I think it's important to remember that, in 1945, there was simply no possibility of the Western Allies doing anything about the actions of the Soviets. They were still our allies, after all, and the Western leaders still harboured genuine ambitions of reaching a peaceful agreement with the USSR about Europe's post-war borders. For most of the period that followed, Western leaders were concerned about the prospect of escalation to nuclear conflict that any provocation of the Soviets might have caused. This (amongst other factors, admittedly) is why the erection of the Berlin Wall did not lead to a stronger Western reaction, despite the fact that it was an appalling affront to human rights.

[airshifter]

The unfortunate reality is that in any conflict, we never have the advantage of the hindsight that history later teaches us. We will never know if pressure on Soviet Russia could have changed history for the better or for the worse.

To coin a term used in the thread, we are often the devil regardless of which course of action is taken in any conflict. The only thing that changes is which parties will consider other parties the devil.


I cannot speak with certainty over what might have happened, but I suspect that the consideration of a nuclear escalation was a primary thought in any western countries mind. Having been born shorty after the Cuban Missle Crisis, the nuclear threat was still very real when I joined the military. Once again if we had the benefit of hindsight, it may be possible that if the US continued the Pacific campaign without the use of the nukes, the war and that threat may have ended without bringing to reality the brutal destruction that these devices bring upon all people. I think this was the real "devil" that this war brought to light, and the lives of all of us have changed because of it.


As pointed out by gadjo_dilo, neither the US or western powers were angels in all of this. Our actions as with most countries were primarily in the interest of our countries and not all countries. Just as one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, I suspect depending on your point of view often one mans devil is anothers angel. Even the difference between good and evil often becomes complex.

[Camelopard]

This could get interesting:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin

[Roamy]

So we now have a new country in Europe - Kosovo.

I'm somewhat taken back at the opposition to the move from some quarters, to my mind I'd always thought that if the citizens of a particular province or region choose to govern themselves then it's not for anyone to stand in their way. This applies as much in Kosovo as well as the likes of Scotland etc.

Mark this is clearly our fault!! Just ask any Serb or EKI

[gadjo_dilo]

Ha! I'm back and I'm less nervous than last week. After all, spring is in the air and yesterday we celebrated a sort of local Valentine's Day.
Now that I'm relaxed I agree with those who say "that was no possibility of the Western Allies doing anything about the actions of the Soviets". But in these circimstances don't take out our eyes with things like "the USA did help you by financially running the USSR into the ground with the arms race". The real thing is that USA don't help anybody, they follow their own interest and sometimes it may overlap with the interest of others.
We don't owe anything to them. But they had a moral obligation to us.

Unfortunately love wasn't in the air for all the guys in my country. A few idiots have already waved the flags of a so-called Szekely Land right in the middle of the country. Of course they'll end up by eating a big s*** but their shameless atitude is quite annoying.

[leopard]

Yeah, if the citizens of a particular province or region without sufficient resource we can exploit from, choose to govern themselves we would better let it go.