New engine Formula 1 from 2021

This is a story from the BBC website. Thoughts? Mercedes dont seem happy unsurprisingly. I have posted the text below in case anyone cant see it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41820129


Formula 1 has revealed its plans for a new engine formula from 2021.
The proposals are aimed at reducing costs, "improving the sound", increasing competitiveness between teams and maintaining road relevance.
The plan is to retain a 1.6-litre V6 turbo hybrid but to remove one of the two ways currently used to generate hybrid power.
Engines will run at a higher speed and the drivers will have greater control over hybrid energy deployment.
The key proposals, which are an attempt to improve the racing, were presented to teams by governing body the FIA and new F1 owners Liberty Media at a meeting in Paris on Tuesday.
The proposals are:

• a 1.6-litre V6 turbo hybrid.
• Engines running 3,000rpm faster to improve sound.
• The removal of the MGU-H, the part of the hybrid system that recovers energy from the turbo and which is largely responsible for muting the sound made by the current engines.
• A more powerful MGU-K - which recovers energy from the rear axle - to make up the loss in hybrid energy from the MGU-H and with the option for a driver to save up energy over a number of laps to add a tactical element to the racing.
• A single turbo with constraints on dimensions and weight.
• Standard battery and control electronics.
• Research into tightening up fuel regulations

It is hoped the new formula will enable smaller, private engine companies to enter F1 and compete with the manufacturers and attract other car companies into the sport.
The move follows months of work by the FIA and F1 Group, which was taken over by US group Liberty Media, and is recognition that the current engine has significant flaws.
It has produced engines that have created a revolution in terms of efficiency but they have failed to excite fans, partly because of their limited noise, and the smaller teams feel they are too expensive.
A joint statement by the FIA and F1 said the proposals would now be "discussed and developed" by interested parties in a series of meetings "in the spirit of the widest possible co-operation".
However, if the FIA and F1 are in agreement, the teams do not have enough power within F1's rule-making procedure to block them - unless Ferrari objects and decides to use a veto over new rules it has enshrined in its contracts with the sport.
Ross Brawn, F1 managing director motorsports, emphasised the proposals had arisen from "a series of meetings with the F1 teams and the manufacturers who showed their interest to be part of the pinnacle of motor sport".
He added: "We've carefully listened to what the fans think about the current (engine) and what they would like to see in the near future with the objective to define a set of regulations which will provide a powertrain that is simpler, cheaper and noisier and will create the conditions to facilitate new manufacturers to enter Formula 1 as powertrain suppliers and to reach a more levelled field in the sport.
"The new F1 has the target to be the world's leading global sports competition married to state of the art technology. To excite, engage, and awe fans of all ages but to do so in a sustainable manner. We believe that the future power unit will achieve this."

It seems Renault and Mercedes are wary of these changes. Mercedes will probably be anti anything which takes their dominance away.

I really focus on the part about new teams. I have always wanted and thought F1 should aim at a 26 car grid. Albeit 24 seems the target now.

If this allows new teams to join that is a good thing. I think the new Liberty groups ambition for F1 is better than anything for a while. Proper circuits, history and new teams the priority. However whether this is being done the right way I cannot comment.

I hope their desire to improve F1 is by getting the motorsport part right rather than lots of gimmicks like triple DRS, fan boost, joker corners etc.

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Presumably increasing rpm means raising the fuel flow limit, as that's the current effective rev limit. And hopefully also the total fuel for the race, otherwise it'll mean even more overt fuel saving.

On the surface they're okay but it suggests they will have to relax fuel flow and ultimately use more fuel. That doesn't seem to match up to a hybrid, more efficient formula.

MGU-K also suggests a larger battery where additional power can be discharged over one or several laps at different intervals - not a fan of that, unless DRS is totally removed. Though both are still gimmicks.

To my POV the new rules don't really address any of the core issue at the moment. I am so sick of hearing about the noise of the current engines. The current engines sound great they just aren't as loud as previous iterations.

Anyway, it's clearly obvious from the new proposed regulations that F1 has not really learned much. I do think a spending war is inevitable here.

Either bring back V10's or else leave the engines as they are. Tinkering with what is already there is just going to explode costs and, inevitably, Mercedes will come out on top. They have had the best engine in F1 for nearly 20 years now, I don't see a spending war changing that any time soon. They are simply the best in the engine department.

So, it looks like we're about to see history repeat itself.

I don't believe we meed any engine changes. Clearly this year Ferrari and RBR have caught up massively. 2017 has been a fantastic seaaon. Never in the 20+ years I've been watching F1 have we had a situation where any of 3 teams could won any race, any weekend. F1 should stop to consider that before they introduce changes which could spread out the field more again.

It's a bit of a mystery to me how is changing the engine formula again going to help cut costs and tighten the field. It's quite probable that by 2021 the engines will be closer in terms of performance and reliability and should get cheaper. Except for Honda, they will be just starting from scratch with a different design that will be dead slow and blow up every other race. Maybe that's the whole point. Since Honda starts from scratch so often, maybe they all should.

If we can get more engines and more teams I am all for it. Ten teams with points to tenth should not be for the "pinnacle of motor sport".

There are a couple of potential issues that I can see:
1) Wondering where these new teams are going to come from. It will take massive amounts of cash to build/rent new cars and engines.
2) Seems counter productive to be doing a new fossil fuel engine, with associated design and development costs, when the automotive world is rapidly going electric.
3) In regards to #2, why would Mercedes, Honda, etc. want to continue to dump tons of cash into an (almost) obsolete power plant?
4) Team's budgets are already stretched for much of the grid (think pay drivers as just one symptom) and these are the teams who can afford to play now. What private or corporate entities are interested enough in the sport and have the necessary resources that aren't already in?
I can think of a few more problems but that's enough for now.

Ferrari have threatened to quit F1 now under the current proposals. That changes things. Now I really want the owners to move ahead with the proposed changes. It would be great for the sport if Ferrari left and it'll do fine without them. Tired of F1 bosses bending to Ferrari's will over the years and the favouritism they get.

How many times have we heard Ferrari threaten to quit? :cheese:

Part of the reason the Mercedes cars were allowed to run away uncontested in 2014 and later was the stupid rules that banned in-season engine development, and seriously restricted changes between seasons. No wonder nobody was able to fight back. Note that this rule was introduced to reduce the cost of the engines. How great.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

To my POV the new rules don't really address any of the core issue at the moment. I am so sick of hearing about the noise of the current engines. The current engines sound great they just aren't as loud as previous iterations.

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It seems like these rules contradict themselves. What do they want to accomplish? Reduce the costs of engine development or increase the car's noise? We see a number of changes aimed at reducing costs (more standardized parts), but then there is a bunch of other rules concerned specifically with increasing the engine noise (delete MGU-H, make MGU-K more powerful). Clearly, this brand new set of rules will only increase not only the engine development costs, but also the car development costs, because the cars will also need to be redesigned significantly around new engines. I think it is silly to mandate new engine rules at the time when clearly, both Ferrari and Red Bull cars can regularly challenge the Mercedes.

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Originally Posted by zako85

It seems like these rules contradict themselves. What do they want to accomplish? Reduce the costs of engine development or increase the car's noise? We see a number of changes aimed at reducing costs (more standardized parts), but then there is a bunch of other rules concerned specifically with increasing the engine noise (delete MGU-H, make MGU-K more powerful). Clearly, this brand new set of rules will only increase not only the engine development costs, but also the car development costs, because the cars will also need to be redesigned significantly around new engines. I think it is silly to mandate new engine rules at the time when clearly, both Ferrari and Red Bull cars can regularly challenge the Mercedes.

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I'm not too sure that the MGU-H isn't a bit of a "blind alley" anyway , as I've not heard of any road car considering it's use .
So , putting more resources into something relevant seems like a better road to take to me .

It will also bring back some of that sound that all who have experienced it live crave .
It's exhilarating as hell when you're there .

They'll spend what they can , so , with some costs set , with some standardizing set to come in , like with the ECU , they should all be starting at the same level , which should make it a little more attractive to new entries .

I think this could be a good reset for the series .
Those teams with the most experience will still be up front , but the others might have more of a chance now and then .

I think if it makes it easier to enter F1 then that is good. That is not to be confused with making it easy to win or compete at the top.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

I think if it makes it easier to enter F1 then that is good. That is not to be confused with making it easy to win or compete at the top.

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Agreed, But I'd still like to know how this is going to make entry easier.

Idk how they compare to support classes in other countries. But it's often amused me down here when someone complains about the noise, then referring to V8 supercars. F1 as they are, are louder than V8 supercars.

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Originally Posted by journeyman racer

Idk how they compare to support classes in other countries. But it's often amused me down here when someone complains about the noise, then referring to V8 supercars. F1 as they are, are louder than V8 supercars.

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Footnote: V8 supercars are no longer called V8 supercars. I think it's now called Virgin Australia Supercars Championship because the rules were changed to allow other engine configurations (despite rules change, I think all teams continue using V8 engines in 2017). These Australian V8 cars do sound pretty sweet, although they're not the loudest. For example, the Corvettes running in WEC and the American Weathertech Sportscar championships are much louder.

I remember the wonderful noise of all those V10s on the starting grid , across from the pits , under the big canopy , at Indy in 2000 .

It does make a difference , at least when you're there , and , without the MGU-H , we should be able to hear a little more of the song of the engine .

Allowing more power out of the battery bank makes it a little more relevant as well .

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Originally Posted by Starter

Agreed, But I'd still like to know how this is going to make entry easier.

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Removing the MGU-H , a complicated bit , removes a major cost to start with .
Making some parts standard is an attempt to have different engines easier to adapt to , as well as having set costing for various other bits which would normally have to be built in-house .

Most importantly , though , entry is made easier by making a new formula for all to start fresh , as starting in with all the incumbents well versed in how this car works is a steep hill to climb , and thus , not attractive at all .

They simply , all need to have a drive train they can promote as relevant to a car platform they produce .
Then , they need to have a chance to win .

I'm glad I am not the only one who doesn't understand these rules. I could really care less about the noise. All I care about is more entries.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Removing the MGU-H , a complicated bit , removes a major cost to start with .
Making some parts standard is an attempt to have different engines easier to adapt to , as well as having set costing for various other bits which would normally have to be built in-house .

Most importantly , though , entry is made easier by making a new formula for all to start fresh , as starting in with all the incumbents well versed in how this car works is a steep hill to climb , and thus , not attractive at all .

They simply , all need to have a drive train they can promote as relevant to a car platform they produce .
Then , they need to have a chance to win .

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Well, as the saying goes, the proof will be in the pudding. I remain skeptical about new entries arriving, but would love to be proven wrong.

I doubt it too Starter. Likewise I would love it too. F1 could really use some more new blood. People really enjoyed Hispania, Virgin & Lotus when they entered in 2010. Just a shame they lacked development or progression. Still had some good racing between them.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

I doubt it too Starter. Likewise I would love it too. F1 could really use some more new blood. People really enjoyed Hispania, Virgin & Lotus when they entered in 2010. Just a shame they lacked development or progression. Still had some good racing between them.

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Yes, and that's why I'm skeptical. It costs a lot of $$$ to field a team. The rule about teams only getting money if they've scored points seems like a good idea on first glance as it could spur development. But in real life it really is a Catch 22. Fi has priced itself out of the reach of any but manufacturers and not all that many of them are interested.

They had meetings with many manufacturers attending and , presumably , that was to agree on rules which would spur on new entries .

As such , one might assume the rules have been made more attractive .

It must be difficult , as without , there is no allure at all .
But , it must not be near impossible , as it was under Bernie , where new entries were mere pawns .

I'm maybe less of an optimist , and more of an anti-pessimist on this , because I really want it to work out for the better .

A weakness of whatever tech regs they want to choose. Is that the sporting regs have been terrible since 1994. Because of mandatory pit stops, you don't get to see the see the pattern of racing, or what kind of tactics can be applied over a 300km distance. So no one see the true effect of the tech regs.

As far as more entries are concerned? The only way I can this happen, is for F1 to take a long term view. As in, expand to 2,3,4 series and have promotion/relegation. I don't see how any other way will work.

I can't help thinking they are sacrificing some good decisions from previous years for the entertainment factor of F1. The focus seem to be about increasing the noise at whatever cost. The proposed engine would consume more fuel, it would have more pronounced turbo lag and l fail to see how they would be able to achieve tightening the fuel consumption regulation with increased engine revolutions.

To be honest, l have got used to the sound of these hybrid engines and with a little tweak, l am sure they can be made to sound louder. I don't think F1 should ignore its responsibility to the climate or lose its relevance to the roadcar. When l sit in my car, l could easily see all the things that have their origin from F1. From paddle shifters on the steering wheel to ABS breaks to braking energy recovery to turbos to crash structures and list goes on and on.
I think this is the first stab at the problem and would need further embellishment and refinement to get to the optimum solution.

This is all moot to me. I’ve been following F1 for over 20 years now but my interest has deteriorated exponentially in the last few years and "improving the sound" or "tightening up fuel restrictions" will not improve it.

This upcoming season's introduction of the "halo" is more than likely the nail in the coffin for me, as it is IMO the most embarrassing imposition that the sport has ever introduced.

As has been mentioned, eliminate the gimmicks such as DRS and energy recovery systems which, let’s face it, are nothing more than “push-to-pass” functions that are designed to artificially “improve racing”.

If the FIA / Liberty want to solicit more teams into the sport, they could start by renegotiating the Concorde Agreement with the teams, allowing a more equitable sharing of the sport’s revenue thereby making it more financially attractive to new teams.

Continued mucking about with both technical and sporting regulations, not to mention the barrage of embarrassing gimmicks is all counterproductive in the long run.

Rant over.