So who do you guys think is at fault on this one, Lewis or Nico?
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So who do you guys think is at fault on this one, Lewis or Nico?
Haha.... good idea. This will run for a while.
I think both have to take a lot of blame. Not one or the other more IMO
Niki is blaming Lewis.
I think both had a part to play but after watching it several times it has to be Nico with the larger part. Not many people are blaming Lewis at this point.
I wouldn't want to be Toto or Niki calming down these ladies, I'm sure handbags are a swinging lol.
Toto trying not to blame anyone in particular, but not seemingly agreeing with Niki 100%.
Toto saying on C4 that it's not easy to pick who is at fault as both made errors. He commented that Lauda sees it from a drivers perspective rather than viewing the data and replays.
Lauda's main criticism was that Lewis tried it at a point where it was only possible to overtake with substantial risk and he had no understanding for forcing the issue in turn two of a 66 lap race. He seemed to be convinced that Lewis would have overtaken anyway at a later (less risky) point.
That's where the infamous team-internal "rules of engagement" at Mercedes come into play. They were established after Spa 2014 and they demand that team-internal overtakes require that the driver behind takes responsibility to avoid risk. That's why Nico always backed off when Lewis chopped across his bow. This time it was Lewis's responsibility and he ignored it, which was why even his biggest supporter was po'ed with him. I think Merc shot themselves in the foot with their constant stage-managing here, because they should have known that Lewis doesn't follow the team-internal rules after such a long time without a win.
Toto said that Rosberg lost momentum out of the corner ,maybe due to power loss,Hamilton avoided a rear collision ,and went for the pass Rosberg then tried to close the door ,forcing Hamilton onto the grass at 200 kph .Stewards will decide penalty at end of race .
looking at the onboard images of hamilton, it would say its his fault. by the time he was next to nico, he was already on the gras. he tried to dive into an already disappearing hole.
imo rosberg was not obligated to leave space there .
I think it was just a racing incident.
Lewis was desperate to get back past Nico having been out-manoeuvred at turn 1, and then he found himself gaining suddenly due to (apparently) Nico losing power unexpectedly. With a fraction of a second to make a decision he went up the inside as Nico moved across to defend. I think it was pretty likely that Nico was going to move across and defend, but perhaps the unexpected speed differential is what made the difference to the outcome.
I think both are at fault.
http://oi67.tinypic.com/2w7kdgx.jpg
This clearly shows Lewis alongside Nico and all four wheels on the track. Nico has an obligation per the rules to leave one cars width at this point. Instead Nico pushed him wide. It may not have been intentional but it was definitely Nico's fault. The rules are the rules and the image shows Lewis is alongside, therefore, Nico should have given him room.
So does Nico being distracted by changing strat settings change anyones views or is that a red herring?
I was probably always going to support Lewis so my opinion is probably already clouded.
I must say something in defense of Lewis Hamilton here .
Rosberg should have known , after having beaten him out of the first corner , and having seemingly missed the optimum settings on his car , that Lewis would be a freight train coming through regardless of him shutting the door before he got there .
Lauda Thinks it, Lewis admitt it on Sky, so who am I, clearly Hamiltons fault.
Well the dust has settled and we've heard more views on it. I still think both drivers are at fault with it being slightly tipped towards Nico.
It gave us an exciting race though and I'm glad to see a non-Merc car win for once.
Absolutely Hamilton's fault. Started from pole, got overtaken on the very first corner and crashed on the fourth retiring another guy with him.
All kidding aside , henners , I'm the other way around , with it tipped maybe a bit farther the other way .
Nico really should have known Lewis wouldn't back out of a try , even if he really wasn't obligated to leave room .
The only way to intimidate Lewis out of a move is to be earlier , or more forceful with the defense .
Unfortunately , his engine mode issue had him shifting it mid-corner , after Lewis had seen his red light .
That red light made it all the more necessary for Nico to assert himself clearly , as Hamilton saw the weak moment , and he didn't .
In effect , I see it as Nico having closed the door in Lewis's face , even though he knew he was running towards it .
And I see Lewis running towards a door he knew was closing .
It was close .
Had Lewis been a few feet farther along side , it would have been all down to Nico .
A few feet makes Lewis the donkey , but Nico was a bit of an a$$ , too .
Like Lewis had been so often. He has ran Nico out of space on more than one occasion (Bahrain 14, Hungray 14 spring to mind) Nico has always backed out until Spa '14 and he got publically been pilloried for it. Now, for the first time since they've been team mates, Nico had Lewis in a position where it was 'back out or crash' and Lewis dutifully caused a crash while Nico usually backed out and salvaged points. First of all that says something about Lewis's racecraft. He wanted to decide a 66-lap race in turn four of the first lap. It starkly reminds me of Hill in Adelaide 1994. Schumacher had smashed his car to bits, yet Hill tried to overtake at a stupid location instead of just sailing past a few corners later. The stewards and Merc themselves deem that a racing incident, but from a 'race craft' point of view it was entirely Lewis's fault.
He demonstrated his two main weaknesses this weekend. First was his inability to setup his car. Smoking pot at Barbeidos seems to be more important. His qualifying lap was an amazing piece of work, but it came about because he was given Rosberg's setup data. He had gone nowhere on Friday. And his second weakness is the lack of race intelligence. Lewis always operates with the crowbar. Sometimes a needle is the better tool, but he doesn't know how to use it.
The thing is that Hamilton is just not the sharpest tool in the shed but a tool nevertheless
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Not being a fanboy of either, I can see valid arguments from both sides.
Both at fault but not sure if any should be apportioned most of the blame... so a racing incident for me.
Its easy for us armchair experts to point the fingers but let's not forget how fast these things can happen at 200kph+ and also with the speed differential between the two.
So the arguments begin... Whose fault is it you ask? Well, if you can be objective then these are the facts:-
1. Hamilton lost the drag race to the first corner. Rosberg overtakes on the outside which shows how Hamilton has taken care to give Nico tons of space to avoid a collision.
2. They come out of the corner in to the short straight to turn two. Nico moves left to cover that side
3. Nico discovers that he wasd in the wrong engine mode and proceeds to correct it quickly before turn two. At this point, Nico was down on power and Hamilton was clearly much faster as he was bearing down on a slower Nico.
4. From Hamiltons perspective, Nico had the left side covered but had the right side open by more than a cars width. Hamilton, seeing the opportunity on the right, decides to overtake. Meanwhile, Nico was fiddling with knobs on the steering.
5. Nico finished just in time to see Hamilton heading for the open right side then turned sharply to cut him off. But his reaction was abit late. Hamilton had to take to the grass to avoid a collision, lost grip on the grass, spun round and crashed into Nico.
So the questions are as follows:-
Would any other driver in the grid in Hamilton's position seeing the opportunity and the clear open door to Nico's right not attempt to go for the overtake?
Did Nico, knowing he was in the incorrect engine mode, hence would be slower than the cars behind him momentarily take the right action to avoid a collision from the faster cars behind him? Hence was his attempt to defend the open right side of him under his circumstance not dangerous? Both drivers walked away from that one, but it could have also easily been a fatal accident for Hamilton.
This is racing, not an effing procession. I think Nico should have left a car's width as Hamilton left for him at turn one. His late move to defend the open right side as a result of correcting being in the wrong engine mode was reckless and unsportmanlike. It is similar to his move on Ricciado that resulted in him having a puncture to the rear when he had the opportunity to take the lead of the championship going into the mid season break in 2014.
In my opinion, the stewards at the race were crap. We wanted to see a fair fight at the front, what we saw today was very sub-standard defensive drive by Rosberg that cost Mercedes easy 43 points. I was quite surprise to hear Lauda who normally is very objective about his opinions blame Hamilton before the analysis of the accident had taken place. Hamilton was abit naive today to quickly accept fault without first waiting to see all the fact of the accident before putting his hand up to accept the fault.
Should we expect accidents to occur each time Rosberg receives challenge from a charging Hamilton? At this rate, Mercedes may hand the drivers title to Redbull or Ferrari [if they get their act together].
It is not respectable to not accept fault when it is clearly yours. Nico caused what could have been a fatal accident by not leaving a cars width. You may argue that he was in front and had the right to defend. Our conversation would haave been very different if Hamilton got killed due to that accident which was clearly very reckless.
So the arguments begin... Whose fault is it you ask? Well, if you can be objective then these are the facts:-
1. Hamilton lost the drag race to the first corner. Rosberg overtakes on the outside which shows how Hamilton has taken care to give Nico tons of space to avoid a collision.
2. They come out of the corner in to the short straight to turn two. Nico moves left to cover that side
3. Nico discovers that he was in the wrong engine mode and proceeds to correct it quickly before turn two. At this point, Nico was down on power and Hamilton was clearly much faster as he was bearing down on a slower Nico.
4. From Hamilton's perspective, Nico had the left side covered but had the right side open by more than a cars width. Hamilton, seeing the opportunity on the right, decides to overtake. Meanwhile, Nico was fiddling with knobs on the steering.
5. Nico finished just in time to see Hamilton heading for the open right side then turned sharply to cut him off. But his reaction was abit late. Hamilton had to take to the grass to avoid a collision, lost grip on the grass, spun round and crashed into Nico.
So the questions are as follows:-
Would any other driver in the grid in Hamilton's position seeing the opportunity and the clear open door to Nico's right not attempt to go for the overtake?
Did Nico, knowing he was in the incorrect engine mode, hence would be slower than the cars behind him momentarily take the right action to avoid a collision from the faster cars behind him? Hence was his attempt to defend the open right side of him under his circumstances not dangerous? Both drivers walked away from that one, but it could have also easily been a fatal accident for Hamilton.
This is racing, not an effing procession. I think Nico should have left a car's width as Hamilton left for him at turn one. His late move to defend the open right side as a result of correcting being in the wrong engine mode was reckless and unsportmanlike. It is similar to his move on Ricciado that resulted in him having a puncture to the rear when he had the opportunity to take the lead of the championship going into the mid season break in 2014.
In my opinion, the stewards at the race were crap. We wanted to see a fair fight at the front, what we saw today was very sub-standard defensive drive by Rosberg that cost Mercedes easy 43 points. I was quite surprise to hear Lauda who normally is very objective about his opinions blame Hamilton before the analysis of the accident had taken place. Hamilton was abit naive today to quickly accept fault without first waiting to see all the facts of the accident before putting his hand up to accept the fault.
Should we expect accidents to occur each time Rosberg receives challenge from a charging Hamilton? At this rate, Mercedes may hand the drivers title to Redbull or Ferrari [if they get their act together].
It is not respectable to not accept fault when it is clearly yours. Nico caused what could have been a fatal accident by not leaving a cars width. You may argue that he was in front and had the right to defend. Our conversation would have been very different if Hamilton got killed due to that accident which was clearly very reckless.
There's the flaw in your logic, because Nico started to move right BEFORE Lewis did. In fact his move was practically telegraphed. Lewis thought his speed advantage was big enough to be alongside before Nico could close the gap, but he misjudged that. According to Stewards verdict Rosberg simply kept his line by the time Lewis came alongside, wchich is a valid bahaviour.
Short and simple: too much impatience on Lewis's behalf. F1 cars come with brakes for a reason. Trying such a desperate move in a car that is over one second faster than the rest of the field is simply not wise.
Mercedes have to take a part of the blame too. They refuse to let drivers go on different strategies and basically have been running a 'leader after T1 wins' rules since 2014. That sort of thing provokes such desperation.
I am not sure which race you were watching buddy, Nico's change of direction was at nearly 45%. It was not the normal racing line between turn one and two. Your argument fail in that Nico should have seen a faster car heading at him and taken avoiding but equally defensive action to ensure he remains in the race after turn two. A driver closes the door on cars behind if he sees it is safe and reasonable to do so, just as driver attempts to overtake a car in front when he sees a gap and sees that he has the speed advantage to make the overtake successfuly. There is an element of trust involved in making an overtake. Trust that the driver in front is good enough to recognise when there is a deficit of advantage lost to the car behind, hence an attempt to overtake is likely. And to make a sensible judgement call to defend in such a way as to not cause an accident.
When there is such a performance difference as there was between Nico and Hamilton while he sorted out his engine mode, the move to overtake is very much on. Any driver worth their weight in salt would definitely make that move. That was very similar to the Kyvat's move on Vettel in China. Vettel left enough room to avoid an accident.
Another interesting thing, was, Rosberg claims Hamilton was suddenly there. He clearly did not have any spacial awareness in the moments leading to the collision as he had his head down while all of it was going on.
Sorry, Nitro, I'm not buying that. The replay has been shown over and over again, Nico moved off the racing line pretty much immediately after he'd cleared the corner. Lewis had all the time in the world to lift, stay left and be past. He was simply too impatient and Rosberg saying that Hamilton was 'suddenly there' is not too far-fetched, considering that he had closed the door before Lewis came alongside with two wheels already in the grass. He was most likely expecting him on the left (and looking there), because that's where most other drivers would have easily sailed past, instead of trying to force open a gap that was already closed.
Okay, most except Ricciardo. He would have waited for the next corner and dive-bombed from three thenth behind.
I suppose we would see what we want to see. With the speed difference between the the two cars, l fail to see how Hamilton had the time to slow down. He was on the grass to take avoiding action. Both of Hamilton's front wheel was well past the rear wheel of Rosberg, thus it was clear to Rosberg that moving to the right was going to drive Hamilton of the track unto the grass. If it was a runoff area, then that would have been a reasonable maneuver. As it went, it was grass, consequently resulted in an accident that also took him out of the race.
I would say go watch it again.
Sorry Nitro, but Hamiltons front wheel was never even next to Rosberg's rear wheel, much less past it. His front wing came close to the rear wheel of Nico's car, but he was already off the track beforehand. Both the overhead replay from the helicopter cam and his own incar replay showed that quite well. I guess we have to agree to disagree as we obviously saw two different races.
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/124...anish-gp-crash
Have a read of that.
Toto Wolff told a packed media briefing: "I think the manoeuvre was fair enough to attempt. The result was unfortunate, but making the manoeuvre and seeing the light [on Rosberg's car] blinking and just going for it was what he should have done.
"And equally you can't blame Nico for closing the door. But the difference of speed just triggered the incident in the end."
Buddy, the overtake was definitely on.
Nitro. The link says Sky UK. When have they ever been unbiased? And even Mercedes themselves don't know what to think. Wolff says both are at fault. Lauda says Lewis was wrong to try that. That in itself is rather funny, considering that Lauda has always been biased pro-Hamilton.
Patience of a saint , dj . Good man .
Anyway, off to bed for me. Have to go back to Austria tomorrow. It was good to see spirited debate back in the forum. It has been way too quiet lately. Cheers all :)