I am getting frustrated with watching Sebastien Bourdais do so poorly in F1.
He cant be that bad....can he?
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I am getting frustrated with watching Sebastien Bourdais do so poorly in F1.
He cant be that bad....can he?
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by underpowered
He was doing relatively well at the start of the season, but hasn't looked as good since they changed cars. Then again, he made it to the 2nd round of qualifying last week in Hungary, but had to start near the back due to a penalty.
All in all, I don't think he's doing too badly considering he's driving for a team that not too long ago was MinardiF1.
There's a mentality in F1 that drivers are pretty much interchangable. The drivers should adapt to the team's set-up, not provide feedback. If the can't adapt, just get another one. They play disrespectful mindgames with the drivers. Some seem to give in if the driver fights enough, such as with Jacques Villeneueve at Williams, where his input, once they listened, helped the team. Others, as with JV at BAR (or, apparently, Michael Andretti at McLaren) have various other nefarious reasons for disregarding a driver, or even sabotaging him. There's also a degree of scapegoating with underperforming teams.
Obviously, some of the better teams value driver input, and some of the top drivers have amazing technical knowledge.
Bourdais' case is odd. In his first race he passed up through the field to a 7th place finished that signaled more to come. He's had a few pretty good drives that ended with mechanical DNFs, but it does look a bit fishy.
F1 is in another world from top level American open wheel racing as far as demands on the drivers. Part of it is in America, people still try to have fun with racing. In Europe, it's more business-like. Drivers who spent a significant part of their open wheel careers here get into that and they get their minds messed with and it's all downhill from there.
No! Bourdais is an excellent driver without a hope in hell at Toro Rosso. The new STR chassis has not been compliant with Bourdais' style of driving, which I believe is due to Berger's favoritism for Vettel. From the instant Le Seb went off at Monaco I knew that it was all downhill from there and I've not been proven wrong.
As Vettel excels and gets into Q2 on a regular basis and the occasional Q3 you can see Bourdais struggle a lot more. The frustration is only going to compound and Le Seb will probably wash out by the end of the year.
I'd really like to see Bourdais in an IndyCar (possibly AGR). Why not?
In an interview this week Seb told that he is the onlyone out of 4 guys, who is saying that smt. has to be changed with car - so it is 1 again 3, what means no changes. Sad, but true.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
He was in the best team in CCWS but I don't think he is bad. But pollitics in F1 surely mean if they need him gone then he will look awful. It'll be made sure of, scap goat was a word above and I agree. Just remember Zanardi at Williams. The car was the dyer and I'm not just talking the livery either.
Bourdais is good, but he has to adapt to the new car quickly or he'll be out of a job.
Truthfully, he was never as good as looked in Champ Car. NH had a special suspension package that gave him a huge advantage. That said, Tracy, Power or Wilson are probably the only other guys on the grid who could have done as much with the car he had.
Don't expect him in an IRL car until they change the formula. He thinks the Dallara is a CW, and way too dangerous. He saw what it did to Bruno Junqueria's back at Indy a few years ago, and Bruno has never been the same.
See 'ya in ought eleven, Seabass...
i sometimes watch F1 cuz it comes on like 7am
and i never see Bourdais anywhere? i wish he could come to IRL he was one of my faves in champcar for many years
Aint gonna happen. Seabass spent all of those years in Champcar so he could get back to F1. He wont come back until things change in a big way in IndyCar.
Vettel is getting the better of Bourdais right now because the new upgrades that were put in place give the advantage to Vettel's driving style. He is rough and bully's a car to get where he wants it to, where Bourdais is very smooth and fluid. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
Frankly, I'd rather see Bourdais go to Renault (home team) than to come back here. He earned the right to drive in F1, so I say let him stay and try to make a name for himself there.
But I do miss seeing him on the track around here in the US.
I think this is the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by domaza
Le Seb is not my favorite at Toro Rosso. Look at my sig! I prefer Vettel over Bourdais simply because the young German had more experience in a F1 car. Now Berger personally mentors this kid and is trying to raise a superstar. If anyone was in denial about my previous post, then watch this video.
So why is Berger giving him up to the primary team? Is Gerhard moving up too?Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
$$$$$$Quote:
Originally Posted by bblocker68
That would probably be his primary motivator. Also, I'm sure Red Bull dropped a little threat in the contract just in case Berger had any hiccups (i.e. no Vettel = no STR3).
At NHL in Champcar, Seb B was the big dog. The car was tuned to his needs.
At STR, he's "officially" the "Equal Dog". But IMO any F1 team will favour the younger guy over the older one.
As well as that, I am suspicious of any team management that burns through (or will burn through) 2 sets of drivers in as many years. Especially when they hold the drivers (except Saint Vettel) solely responsible for the "teams" performance. Alot of the post race comments from STR suggest they assume they are immune from problems, but the drivers have all the problems.
He was better, relative to Vettel, at the start of the year. Maybe he'll give him another run for his money, maybe not. He's certainly not bad, but it certainly gives you a scope on the depth of talent of AOWR road course drivers vs the depth of talent in F1.
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Can't handle it?Quote:
Originally Posted by jimispeed
You said AOWR.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Seabass only raced in CCWS and not IRL.
IRL arguably had better depth in talent. F1 writer and commentator Peter Windsor has said Scott Dixon, TK, Franchitti and Castroneves would be good F1 drivers.
I think it is rather due the fact that STR are not developing their own chassis, they use the one designed by Red Bull Technology (aka RB4). The team as a whole doesn't have a big say in the development directions, I suppose and Séb is trapped in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
He raced in IRL at Indy once.............
If Red Bull pulls it support, that team may not exist next year. Dietrich Mateschitz owns 50% of STR and next year Red Bull and STR won't be able to share Adrian Newey's design. He's said his share of STR is for sell. If no buyer is found, he'll probably pull his support from STR. I can't see Berger continuing on out of his own pocket.
I think Seabass is a very talented driver, but got his chance at F1 with a poor team. Plus he got his chance a little late in his driving career. I know he's not that old, but considering the youth movement in F1 over the last decade, the track record for guys starting at his age isn't great. He may have an interest in coming back to race in the US, but it wouldn't surprise me to see him sign with Puegot if his F1 career ends.
"IRL arguably had better depth in talent."
Sorry dude, you lost me there. Kannan had 6 years in CART, and never did a thing worth noting except hold up Paul Tracy on a regular basis. Franchitti was good when he was younger, as were Helio and Dixon. But there was no evidence they were going to be anything more than upper middle packers if their teams hadn't defected to the IRL.
During Seabass' tenure, CC had Tracy, Will Power, Wilson, Almedinger, Timo Glock, Doornbos, Junky, Dominguez, Phillipe (who really improved) Hunter-Reay... Well I could go on. But I'd take the top 5 in CC over the the top 5 in the IRL at any point along the way. Seabass was good. Very good and against good competition
Dario is gone, Helio is fading and I still think TK is a never was. Dixon is the only guy I think could have made some real noise in CC over the last few years.
I'm just glad it's all over now, and hopefully with a new more challenging package we can start viewing Indycar as a world class series again in the near future.
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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
With what sort of logic can you possibly draw that conclusion? In one series he was driving for the top team and had engineers that we eager and willing to set the car up to his liking. In the other he is driving for a perennial back marker and has zero input into the car's setup. With those parameters how can you possibly judge the depth of talent in AWOR?
Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Can't handle what? The lack of logic? I can't. Your premise may be right, there may not have been much depth. But your argument for getting to that premise doesn't hold water.
Gary
Bourdais is a decent driver but I think that years driving in America have had an affect. It's obvious that the cars are completely different between F1 and the US series and it seems that many drivers from the US struggle when they get to F1. Likewise drivers that seem to struggle to get into F1 can do very well in the US (see Dan Wheldon).
Having the worst car need not always be the end of a career. Alonso drove for Minardi but ended up being WDC a few years later because his talent was realised. I think that Bourdais also has talent (not on the same level as FA) and will continue in F1 but I would be amazed if he was ever a contender for a Championship, even if he was in one of the best cars.
If F1 doesn't work out, I could see Bourdais going to DTM long before he returns to North America to race in the IRL. In fact, in the last interview I read, he indicated that he was happy to have escaped the mess that AOWR has become. Like Jacques Villeneuve, he doesn't seem to feel that he has any unfinished business in AOWR. If he returned to N.A., I'd say it would be to give NASCAR a try. His IROC experience seemed to give him a desire for NASCAR over anything else here.
If anyone has seen interviews to the contrary, I'd love to read them. But I think he's settled in Europe for good... racing or no racing.
As much as I hate saying it, I think Seabass is a victim of AOWR's spec racing environment. No manu. competition has meant he hasn't had to adapt to having a losing combination. Even in f3 they were spec when he won. Good for relatively lower costs, bad for driver development.
IMO we'd see him in the Peugeots before he's back over here.
He can name exactly what should be changed thanks to his experience seting up cars which was vital in SPEC cars which you are deriding. So a driver has to adapt to a crappy setup and the team will not change it. I'm blown away that fans think this is an acceptable way for teams in the top race series in the world to operate. This is an example of everything that is wrong with F1. Who needs at track competition of the teams? Money politics and thier hired engineers will predetermine everything about the race including the car setup. Why have drivers at all then? It is stupid. Tech has gone to the point where the cars can be run with a computer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
It's not about setup in terms of just tweaking the suspension or altering the wing but rooted in the basis of the chassis iteself. If you have one driver saying one thing and then another driver (with pots of money) and the test drivers saying another then you just wouldn't side with the bloke on his own. Especially as putting Bourdais in a sub-par car will probably yield better results than if Vettel wasn't happy with setup.
To think that the team will spend millions just because one bloke 'who should be doing better' doesn't like the car is a joke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
I didn't say he didn't have a good technical base. I did say he hasn't had to adapt to a car that wasn't fast on a race by race basis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
That's part of f1. Prove to the team that you have the greatest potential. They'll start to suit to you, maybe. Bourdais is at a real disadvantage like Mr Jan Yeo said, Webber, Coulthard, Vettel, and the other three or four test drivers vs him alone. Fly or fall.
There is nothing wrong with F1, it's all about technology, teams and drivers like it is always been. Ask Mario Andretti about Lotus 79 and ground-effect. As regards to Seabass, in my view he's done ok, considering he is facing one the best young drivers in the world and the team is a bit weird towards their drivers, at least Franz Tost who seems to blame the drivers for everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWS77
Yeah, but Windsor also claimed that Alonso was "not so good in a good car", so I'd be hesitant to take his opinions as gospel. However I think Dixon is one of the most talented guys in the IndyCar grid.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
He was regarded as the best in the CCWS grid. And at the moment he is losing out to his teammate in F1. I'm not judging him by the position of his team, I'm judging him by his position in comparison to his teammate. He is not a bad driver, he has potential, but at the moment he's really got to dig deep to adapt to the F1 environment, and his car.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
It has happened to others.....Michael Andretti, Cristiano da Matta........and the same has happened here in reverse, going back as far as Juan Fangio and continuing to today with Enrique Bernoldi.......and then there are those who have shown well at both, like Mario Andretti, Juan Montoya, Jacques Villeneuve, Nigel Mansell.
Yeah, I was going to note that there is a long list of ex-F1 drivers who failed in AOW.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Also, Mansell's second year here, the car wasn't so good and he just fell apart.
Enrique Bernoldi was never a top driver(wasn't even close to beat his team-mates) so basically he's just another F1 reject like Wilson or Junqueira trying to succeed on an "easier" open-wheel category.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
While the "true" Fangio never drove in American Open-Wheel racing, and the Fangio who ran in CART in the mid 90's didn't even drove a mile on a F1 car.
As for Bourdais, the competition he faced on CC was like it or not way much weaker than the one he's facing in F1, plus he had a better car, but!... I don't think he's as bad as it looks right now, as Vettel might be the next big thing in F1.
So IMO, he's a good driver, not championship material but could take some wins on a top car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
I questioned and continue to question how your logic leads you to judge the depth of talent in either AWOR or F1. You still have not answered that question.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
Gary
Best driver in CCWS struggling against teammate who also doesn't have a full season's experience in F1.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
That still does not prove a thing abouut the difference in depth between AWOR and F1, now does it? All that proves is the difference between two drivers.
Gary
I'd argue that Villeneuve never really 'showed well' in F1, despite winning the championship. He did well in a very good car for one year but apart from that he left F1 under a cloud of underacheivement. I would certainly rate Bourdais above JV as an F1 driver, even if we haven't seen it yet :)Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool