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Genuine question: when did the scourge of paying drivers really begin in earnest and who/what is responsible? I can't really remember many during the 1990s, or early 2000s, when there were *paid* drivers at various times at Lancia, Toyota, Ford, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Peugeot, Citroen, Seat and Hyundai. Is it as simple as a lack of factory seats?
2003 Hirvonen is the first in works seat nominated for ponts as far as I remember. there were some guys in Prodrive All Stars team but that was not works seat, just rented cars
So Hirvonen is the first paying driver in WRC ever? He must also be the best ever, because he almost won the championship :)
Wasn't Luis Climent a paying driver before Hirvonen? Spanish sponsors (Airtel) appeared on Octavias WRC after he joined Skoda Motorsport in 2000 and disappeared when he left.
https://www.skoda-motorsport.com/en/...f-octavia-wrc/
I think that paying drivers is an idea that came from Forumula 1.
http://www.rallyecards.cz/wp-content...safari2000.jpg
I was going to mention Climent, as I'm pretty sure he bought that seat, but, I think there's a difference between paying for a drive, like we see nowadays, and bringing sponsorship to a team, like Loix with Marlboro, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
A statement that does not represent the truth. The whole concept of "paying driver" is way too sketchy to be used as an attribute. And Hirvonen most definitely wasn't "the first" in any paying category. Climent probably was the first in factory teams in 00's, but we've had plenty of them before as well. The nature of the paying business was maybe different in the past, but at the end of the day it's about the same thing. If Hirvonen was a paying driver, how come Alex Fiorio wasn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBEVSBOraCQ
This Finnish report of Tour de Corse 1993 states at 7:40 that Andrea Aghini must pay Lancia for every rally, but the Italian ASN is supporting him. So this would imply it's not a totally brand new concept...
Scanning the list of 1973 entrants, I'm going with Shekhar Mehta but I could be wrong there.
I was watching some footage from 1997 yesterday, and as far as I can work out there were only between 6-8 works seats that year, which is a similar number to this year.
I suspect the real answer to your somewhat loaded ("scourge", really?) question is that it has to with fewer and fewer external sponsorship deals (no tobacco, not worth it for alcohol, lesser ROI for other brands due to reduced mainstream exposure) and teams looking to save money to invest it elsewhere if one driver can bring sponsorship and another can't.
If you were starting a WRC team for a manufacturer this year, and you couldn't take any of the guys currently under contract (being paid) for a seat, which three would you choose? And after you've chosen those, could your mind be swayed on any of them, if your 4th or 5th choices could offer you a financial incentive?
This. Also, car manufacturers aren't as wealthy as they were 20-30 years ago and similarly motorsport isn't as important marketing channel today as it used to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by dodge33cymru
Oh what a lovely problem to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by dodge33cymru
Well, I'm definitely having Breen and Paddon. Then I would see whether Mikkelsen "becomes available" under the right circumstances. If he doesn't, it's between Tidemund and Ostberg. If Ostberg helped financially, that might sway me.
Perhaps "scourge" was too strong a word, although it's important to differentiate between a "tourist", say like Bertelli, and a "paying driver", like Ostberg. I don't think I need to point out the difference. I don't object to the likes of Bertelli, it's his money and he can spend it however he wishes. What annoys me is when someone like Breen is left on the sidelines due to lack of cash, or someone like Ostberg has to pay a professional outfit to get a drive; the operative word is "professional", meaning you get paid to do it, not the other way round.Quote:
Originally Posted by dodge33cymru
I think the answer to my question lies in your third paragraph; everything you've said there is true, sadly. To paraphrase: no sponsorship deals due to lack of exposure. I think that is the real problem. For example: why have M-Sport, with all the success they've had, still been unable to find a title sponsor?
Regarding your hypothetical question about which currently not-under-contract-drivers I'd choose if I was starting a team today, it'd be Paddon, Breen, Suninen and Ostberg. In the admittedly unlikely event that one of them could also bring in a huge sponsor, say like Loix with Marlboro, then that may be part of the equation, but they'd have to be competitive also.
Very important difference you point out here.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
"Tourist" drivers that can never hope to get top 3 results have been around for ages. But the concept of drivers that are capable of top 3 results (and sometimes also got them in the past) and/or drivers nominated for manufacturer points is something that first really became "normal" with Hirvonen.
At that time (2004) he was very unproven driver who did most of the 2003 season (as a paying driver) with best results being 6th on Cyprus where he kind of just survived trough while others did not. Suddenly he was the 2nd driver in a car/team that just won the drivers title. While McRae who 2 year before finished 4th in the championship and was was probably best paid driver was without any drive at all.Yes Burns' illness was a factor in that.
After that it just slowly became "norm" with Kresta and Sola at Ford/Msport in 2005 etc etc. Also it almost destroyed Hirvonen's career cause he was terrible in the Subaru in 2004 (the Impreza was arguably the best gravel car that year) and got kicked at the end of season ending without a drive. Only good speed/results in the few rallies he entered in 2005 (again as paying driver), some of which were due to road position on gravel got him drive at Ford in 2006. If he did just a little big worse or Gardermeister or Kresta did a bit better, it's not so sure he would made it back.
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Yes you might be right that the underlying reason could be that there are less sponsor money. However I still think Jouhki (with Hirvonen) normalized the approach. If nobody of the drivers/managers came with the money then teams would not "expect" then to come with money from then on, even though in the longer term it might have been inevitable.
Suninen is under contract to M-Sport and they pay him. Confirmed by Rich Millener in an interview and told to me by an insider working with Suninen.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
Maybe he got some aid from ACI/Csai but Aghini was always mentioned as a Lancia/Jolly Club paid driver in 93 and the team was (like almost ever) backed by Fiat/Lancia and Totip, alongside that year main sponsor, Repsol, brought by Sainz.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Fiorio shouldn't either be considered a paying driver, once his Jolly Club years were also backed by the team sponsors; not so sure about his brief experience with Ford in 91, although it’s fair to say that despite being Cesare Fiorio son he was actually one the best Italian drivers of his generation.
Btw, didn’t Ford Spain and Ford France, among other sponsors, paid for Sainz and Auriol 1988 WRC outings with Ford Motorsport? Eventually we'll find that personal sponsors always played a major role in most WRC drivers careers.
I thought the factory support ended after 1991Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Tommi Mäkinen also got two factory team outings in 1991 from Mazda, maybe Timo Jouhki was already paying by then? And what about his drives with a private team Lancia in 1993?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
so, we have paying drivers in the sport. and we have only two champs in the last 15 championships who came to the top without big private money behind them. maybe we can draw some lines here.
But they came with support other countries federations wouldn't dream of putting in to their top national drivers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
If I remember rigth, the last year of the Lancia/Abarth factory team was 92. In 93 Lancia got a deal with Jolly Club (previously their main sattelite team) giving them some support to run the Delta on the WRC, with Sainz as leading driver and Repsol as main sponsor (a bit like Ford/MSport+Ogier/Red Bull deal) but that support wasn't enougth to keep the car competitive through the season (they even tried Lamborghini help for the engine evolution) and Sainz moved to Subaru at the end of the year. Aghini run in some events the second car in Totip/Jolly Club usual colors, while in others the car was driven by Trelles, with Repsol and Ancap (a personal sponsor) logos.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Yep, FFSA help was important for them to stand out, but the key factor for their success was Citroen almost immediate support, getting them under contract even before the JWRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by er88
1992 was already a Jolly club year, although they still had the Martini colours, but the factory backing was ended. In retrospect, we can see this as Toyota started becoming faster through out 1992 and in 1993 Lancia was out of the competition. That's how quick the factory teams develop their cars, and without the support you fall offQuote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
http://juwra.com/lancia_season_1992.html
i think that it's obvious that something is wrong in the systemQuote:
Originally Posted by er88
Was it so immediate...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Well yes, compared to some others, quite quickly in the factory team, which in both cases was also their national manufacturer and quite quickly winning in them. Something that hasn`t been repeated so quickly later on.
IMHO mentioning Loeb in this thread is completely crazy. He was the best driver in the history of this sport and had nothing to do with "paying drivers". He got support from the French Federation because of great results. He was winning rallies in Citroen Trophy already 2 years after he sarted rallying.
https://www.ewrc-results.com/profile/3-sebastien-loeb/
This!! And none of the 'journalists' seem to be asking questions why - instead we see plenty of backslapping on how great everything is.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
No need for the plural, there's only David Evans... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Lancia’s WRC reorganization in 92 (using Martini Racing label and Jolly Club service) was mostly a way to allow Abarth (then Fiat/Lancia motorsport department) to still be involved in the series, in a time group Fiat was moving its motorsport resources towards Alfa Romeo (with DTM in mind). Despite the pull out announcement in late 91, many people kept calling 92 team as Lancia’s ‘official’ team, once Abarth’s presence was quite clear (even in the link you provided there’s a mention of a common Turin/Milan base and top Abarth staff, like Russo or Roberti, are named); that presence disappeared in 93 and Jolly Club was mostly on its own when Sainz came in (after Repsol clash with TTE, due to Castrol deal).Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Yes, but the point is that the French system via FFSA puts the effort in to find and back those drivers itself. If Loeb had been born in Poland or Italy or Germany or the UK would he have had those same opportunities? The point isn't that Loeb didn't deserve that backing, but that there may be other natural talents out there that wouldn't be able to do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
Changing that is near impossible, but that's behind the issue that the OP is talking about.