Thread: Enclosed Cockpit. Good idea? Bad Idea?

Sounds great. Like locking a puppy in a car with the windows closed at noon in New Mexico.

I would go with something like what is very common in off shore boats, an open topped f16 canopy before a fully enclosed canopy which presents quite a few issues and is a much easier initial step, provides a good measure of protection from flying debris and coule be reinforced with kevlar and carbon fiber to restore some of teh rigisity that is lost when the canopy is scalped. Something like the Adrian Newy Redbull car is a total re-design, however if Indycar is going to do anything, now is the time before too many Dallaras are delivered.

As much as I think something should be done with the open cockpit, I don't know if it would be well recieved. The open cockpit is a trademark of open wheel racing. I think the true problem lies with the design of the now old Dallara design, allowing cars to launch off of each other. As fast as Indycars have always been, you never saw cars lauch like that at the track. I'm just relieved something has been done with the 2012 model.

For a car to have a canopy, the design is different. The end result is likely to be closer to a lemans series sports car than the existing open wheeler Formula car.

The temperatures can be kept down and not need the use of air conditioning if the air flow is right and using gold .(see the Audi article).

http://www.thunderboats.org/history/history0117.html (Short history of the f16 canopy use in powerboats)

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/1...ldon-accident/

http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-ce...pies-20110718/

http://www.audiworld.com/news/11/climatic-tunnel/

Even Formula Fords have launched off each other at times.
For the Las Vegas circuit there might have been restrictor plates for the engines to reduce 225 mph, 650 hp (3.5 litre v8 ) etc, 150 mph would have been plenty on the LV track.

Also see the (very long) thread in the F1 forum about canopies. Started long before the accident.

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For the Las Vegas circuit there might have been restrictor plates for the engines to reduce 225 mph, 650 hp (3.5 litre v8 ) etc, 150 mph would have been plenty on the LV track.

Engine power isn't the problem. It's the excess of downforce allowing the corners to be taken at high speed.

I would rather see a "cage" type structure. Something like a top fuel dragster. Enough to cover your head from impacts, but open enough to get out in case of fire etc.

Stupid idea. Overreacting is wrong. More hp, less downforce, no pack racing would be much better idea. I love F1 and Indycar for what they allways been. Machine where the fastest, skilled and the brave race and brake records in speed and tech. Unfortunate creation of irl and dumbing down cars that everyone can drive oround flat has brought us this mess. I believe it would be great disservice to iron man of the past and to Dan to make idiotic reaction. This is racing and accidents happen and anfortunately as cruel as it may sound this wont be last one. Don't forget how many drivers survived amazing distraction of the cars including this one therefore to make it better or safer does not have to be extreme. People die in hydroplane racing too.

Originally Posted by FIAT1

Stupid idea. Overreacting is wrong. More hp, less downforce, no pack racing would be much better idea. I love F1 and Indycar for what they allways been. Machine where the fastest, skilled and the brave race and brake records in speed and tech. Unfortunate creation of irl and dumbing down cars that everyone can drive oround flat has brought us this mess. I believe it would be great disservice to iron man of the past and to Dan to make idiotic reaction. This is racing and accidents happen and anfortunately as cruel as it may sound this wont be last one. Don't forget how many drivers survived amazing distraction of the cars including this one therefore to make it better or safer does not have to be extreme. People die in hydroplane racing too.

Agree with you for 100%.

FIAT1 - excellent post!

From watching Dan Wheldon's car as it was up against the fence, I doubt a canopy would have helped any. A canopy may well have been torn from the car.

I doubt a canopy would have benefitted any of the other Indy car drivers killed since 1996 either;

Jeff Krosnoff
Scott Brayton
Greg Moore
Paul Dana

While the F1 forum has a discussion going, it was an Indy Car and driver that focused that discussion on the possibility of enclosing an open wheeled car's cockpit.

I can envision an enclosed cockpit Indy Car getting upside-down, the canopy being ground partially away by the pavement, and a driver being trapped in a burning car.

Racing boats are poor for comparison because they race on water, not pavement.

In other words, I think an enclosed cockpit is a bad idea, and not a viable solution.

I don't think anything you could have done to a car would have saved Greg Moore considering the nature of the impact. Even a cage would have been crushed in that impact. The others, Im not sure as they were all very different accidents.

You ever hit the water at over 100 mph????. I have.... and have many hospital bills to show for it. Trust me, its is very hard and I have seen boats absolutely disintegrate in a crash. My friend's back was broken when the safety cage on her race boat was crushed in a crash. 14 drivers had died in unlimited Hydroplane accidents prior to adopting the F16 canopy. None have died as a result of an accident in a canopy boat since? A safety capsule has eventually been mandated by almost every major form of boat racing ever since.

I know the capsules work well for a boat - but I think the key is the capsule part, not so much the canopy in and of itself but the canopy as an integral and necessary part of a survival capsule SYSTEM..... Obviously the concept would not work without a canopy because it would sink to fast and water has properties which allow it to do alot of damage if it is not excluded from an area.... Also, not to downplay the significance of hitting the water at 100mph - but if you hit a concrete wall of Safer barrier at the same speed you'd be dead... the properties of the "barriers" in the two sports are completely different - both potentially lethal - but in very different ways....

The problem with the canopy on the Indycar is that the survival capsule concept won't work the same way. you cannot have the survival capsule break away easily - no capsule (or more importantly its occupant) is going to survive being hit dead on by a car going 200+mph if the capsule is ejected too easily. Second, Hydroplanes etc. have no walls to hit - the capsule just sort of skates away - bouncing along taking very significant hits but significantly "lighter" hits than a concrete wall or even the ground....

So, for the car to properly protect its occupant, the core has to stay together pretty well and that is not an insignificant structure and without buoyancy from water to help its is going to be difficult to turn it upright if it lands upside down....

More importantly , what about the low speed rollover (which is not all that uncommon)?? The poor driver caught under a largely intact car can more or less scramble out now - not so with a canopy (and one that is quickly filling with various hot and stinky fluids from the engine and fuel tank). Similarly, Simona would have been absolutely fried if there was fire in cockpit when those guys tried to rip her out of the car......

NASCAR has multiple escape route in their car (two windows/doors and a roof hatch). A sports car has two doors. An openwheeler with a canopy has one route of escape that is most likely going to be dependent on someone else to get you out of the car. If you think the fallout from Dan Wheldon dying nearly instantly in a horrific crash is bad it would be nothing like the fallout of burning a driver to death because they were trapped in the car or suffocating them with noxious fumes, of having them bleed to death because you can't get he thing off even though his legs were just ripped off and the crash damage made the canopy difficult to get off (and make no mistake it would have to be VERY secure to be effective at all....

The more I think about it the worse idea I think a canopy is for Indycars..... It is great for hydroplanes etc - but not Indycars....

Look guys, let face it - high speeds lead to a higher risk of harsh impacts and as a result sometimes unfortunately to the death of a driver. Pay attention to the word "unfortunately" - it involves the probability factor, call it luck or lack of it if you want. It is a matter of a chance to survive a heavy impact.

Look in Youtube the crashes of Jovy Marcelo in 1992 or Scott Brayton in 1996 - they don't look special but yet were fatal. And some others really heavy crashes from Indy 500 in 1992 where drivers survived.

Remember Kenny Brack in 2003 in Texas - he survived by incredible luck. Jeff Krosnoff in 1996 was not lucky in a similar impact.

Patrick Bedard in 1984 survived, but Greg Moore in 1999 didn't.

Gonzalo Rodriguez in 1999 hit the wall (with tyres) head on and died, Roland Ratzemberger in F1 in Imola 1994 broke his neck and died, yet Mark Blundel in 1996 suffered a broken leg.

And no one of these accidents has nothing to do with presence of canopy or lack of it.

Marcelo, Brayton, Rodriguez, and Ratzenberger all died from basilar skull fractures without a HANS device. Krosnoff, Moore and Dan Wheldon all passed away from cockpit facing catchfence/wall. Racing is inevitabley dangerous, but look at the changes that have been made in the last 15 years in the name of safety.

Tony Renna got up into the catch fencing too, in 2003 at Indy.

Between 1979 and 1996, 17 years, Indy car racing only had 2 driver fatalities, Gordon Smiley (Indy) and Jim Hickman (Milwaukee), both occurring in 1982. (prior to Smiley the last fatality at Indy was in 1973)

Since 1996 there have been 7 incidents of fatal injuries, 2 of them on street/road courses Krosnoff, Rodriquez). Of the 5 incidents on ovals only 2 have occured during a race (Moore, Wheldon), the other 3 being during practice (Brayton), testing (Renna), and during warm up laps (Dana).

Dan Wheldon's incident is the only one on an oval that involved multiple cars. Indeed it looks like Wheldon's car was launched up into the catch fence by the impact, from behind, of another car.

Originally Posted by Chris R

NASCAR has multiple escape route in their car (two windows/doors and a roof hatch).

You realize there are no actual doors on a stock car, right? And I think the roof hatch was abandoned after a single race.

Originally Posted by call_me_andrew

You realize there are no actual doors on a stock car, right? And I think the roof hatch was abandoned after a single race.

I just meant the windows in the "doors" - didn't want anybody to think I thought you could actually get out the front or back windows if they were busted out........... I thought the roof hatch was a mandatory part of the COT - just does not need to be used all that much.....

The Capsule works in boats because water isn't abrasive. If you had such a capsule in an Indycar, you would grind it away against the fence or track. There are many reasons and issues that would make it not practical.


The solution for the most part is eliminate the launching of the cars over top of each other putting the car in the fence in the first place. the new design has the fairing around that rear tire..that will stop the front wheels from climbing up and over and the body work wont have them interlocking. Eliminate the airborne race cars for simple incidents on track, and a lot of this goes away. Not all of it...I am not naive enough to assume we wont have some incidents, but it is clear that the things that made this wreck horrific in scope was the pack racing (solved by loosening the rules and upping the power and taking away wing) and the wheels launching cars which the 2012 car will do. A semi enclosed cockpit like the open water boats have pretty much is where they are at now...you only see half a helmet of the driver as it is....how Wheldon died is a true tragic situation and I am sure that f16 cockpit would have been done in had he had one....lets face it, the fence tore the roll hoop off the car..and that is not supposed to happen either...