The DeltaWing lives

**Chris R** · 17th Jun 11, 01:23

Originally Posted by shazbot

Whilst Bowbly, Ganassi and Gurney might lend a degree of credibility I did hear mention of Don Panoz, whose association with this project is surely a nail in the coffin. Anyone who has had anything to do with Mr Panoz will testify to that.

The premise of this concept is a more environmentally friendly form of racing. Give Adrian newey 325bhp to get around a circuit as fast as possible with the same fuel consumption who hear thinks his car would look like DeltaWing?

I don't recall too much bad being said about Don Panoz... I know a lot of people have questioned the fit and finish of his race cars - but fit and finish is rarely a high point on race cars (especially ones built with budget in mind).....

I am not so sure what Adrian Newey's car would look like - He has usually gone for function over form - so.....

**Marbles** · 17th Jun 11, 02:10

Panoz as always struck me as a man who's lost more cash than he'll ever recoup pursuing his passion for motorsports as a promotor, builder, track owner. I've never really heard anything negative about a contrary Panoz. I don't know?

If this project hits Le Mans next year it's only resemblance to concept will be in name only.

**shazbot** · 17th Jun 11, 16:16

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

I know more than a few who worked for Don Panoz who would tell you how wrong you are.

Well I know more than a few people who would tell you how wrong you are so there we go! The whole Panoz/Elan/PAD family of companies has had the potential to be a great organization, it's just been squandered over the years by poor management. Other than writing checks Don has nothing to do with the company, and indeed spends most of his time in Australia in tax exile - he's no longer a US citizen. St Andrews golf course has long since been sold, the Sebring resort is in a terrible state financially, the Diablo Grande resort was bought for $120 million and sold out of bankruptcy in '08 for $20 million. Mosport has been disposed off, Elan has no design capacity any more, Van Diemen barely exists and has been partially signed over to a UK group and the ALMS is struggling. Perhaps Don will bless the Deltawing with his Midas Touch!

Originally Posted by Marbles

Panoz as always struck me as a man who's lost more cash than he'll ever recoup pursuing his passion for motorsports as a promotor, builder, track owner. I've never really heard anything negative about a contrary Panoz.

Yes he has. You say that like it's a good thing! Dons 'interest' in cars stems from his son Danny, whose Panoz Auto Development once produced the Esperante and recently turned out the dogs dinner that was the Abruzzi - or Abortzzi as it was known within the company. The less said about Panoz Jr and his ability to run a company the better. Debacle would sum it up.

**garyshell** · 28th Jun 11, 17:46

Nice interview with Gurney about the Le Mans Delta wing project 56.

Q & A: Dan Gurney on Le Mans DeltaWing project - Racer.com

Gary

**FIAT1** · 1st Sep 11, 20:10

I have always thougt because of the car size that alms would be better formula to race this car. I can't wait to see it on the track with other cars. I have great hope they race this car at RA as part of regular schedule.

**chuck34** · 1st Sep 11, 21:25

Anybody hear when this thing should hit the track for testing? And where?

**beckrd** · 24th Sep 11, 21:34

Originally Posted by garyshell

All of these doubters who think it can't turn or won't be able to keep the nose down just crack me up. Do you folks honestly think you know more about race cars than Dan Gurney? All I need to know is Dan has put his name on the project and that is enough for me. I'd venture a guess that he knows just a little bit more than all of the doubters combined.

Gary

I agree with you to some extent. Dan Gurney has been in the sport of racing for countless years, and I don't doubt his ability to build a racecar. However, I do think the DeltaWing will be a nightmare in the corners, and will have some cooling issues. I can see problems with this car just by looking at it. Having only three wheels, the back end will be the support of the car, terribly upsetting the car's balance. Also, with its ridiculously long front, I believe it will be more like taxiing a small plane than a racecar. Also, there is no overall stability with such a load being put on the back two wheels, and to have only three wheels goes against all racing engineering design. Also, with Don Panoz on board, the car turned out to be a little strange looking. Again, I don't doubt his ability, yet many of his cars have a very strange appearance about them.

I do think Gurney and Panoz have the right idea to expand the realm of Le Mans-spec cars, but I think this is too big of a step. I don't think too many people are keen on the idea, but I like what their motive is. My humble advice is maybe take smaller steps to achieve a goal if you REALLY want to change the future of racing. I think a single failed attempt will set back Project 56 a long way. And, frankly, I don't want to see that. I would like this crazy car to be successful. I just feel like they are really pushing the limits of engineering feats, here.

**Nem14** · 25th Sep 11, 20:07

Dude,
The Deltawing car has 4 wheels, though the front track is pretty narrow ; )

**garyshell** · 26th Sep 11, 04:43

Originally Posted by beckrd

I can see problems with this car just by looking at it. Having only three wheels, the back end will be the support of the car, terribly upsetting the car's balance.

Does that ability to just look at the car and be able to assess it's engineering dynamics extend to being able to actually count the wheels?

Gary

**shazbot** · 26th Sep 11, 14:19

In very simplistic terms the idea of the Delta wing is to have all the aero and mechanical grip at the back. The front end is along for the ride to a certain extent - the steering/yaw force comes from the rear end, the front end follows.

**maxmach** · 26th Sep 11, 17:35

Hey, you know what, Gurney and group are trying something new, something very different, more power to em. I personally think the Deltawing will do ok, probably less then the builders desire, but more then the naysayers here. But damn, they are trying.......that counts for something.

**nigelred5** · 26th Sep 11, 17:48

I wonder how much the design was really altered to comply with ACO rules to have two cockpits. Make this thing conform to their closed car rules and it's really going to be interesting to see. Ace and Gary would be proud. lol

**nigelred5** · 26th Sep 11, 17:54

Originally Posted by FIAT1

I have always thougt because of the car size that alms would be better formula to race this car. I can't wait to see it on the track with other cars. I have great hope they race this car at RA as part of regular schedule.

It is really only eligible under the ACO rules for a special technology car for LeMans, but I agree. If it's going to race, I'd like to see it here and Road America seems like the place. Maybe once it's operational they will do some demonstration laps elsewhere (16th and georgetown ) to prove the technology. I've always like the concept, just not as the next Indycar.

**Mark in Oshawa** · 26th Sep 11, 19:40

I find the detractors are not engineers....and I will wait until the car hits the track. Ken Bowlby isn't a fool or an idiot.....and he is pushing the envelope for ideas. All power to him!

AS for Don Panoz, he essentially saved Mosport, and as for this assertion he doesn't know what he is doing, oh really? He made a hell of a lot of money somehow, he didn't inherit it. So he cant be THAT stupid. Yes, his car company hasn't done much money wise, but the enthusiasm and ideas are pushing for new ideas...give him a little credit for trying...because you know the old saw about making a small fortune in racing...starting with a large one....

**shazbot** · 26th Sep 11, 21:05

Ken Bowlby may well be a fool and an idiot. Ben Bowlby on the hand is a nice guy!

I've worked with Panoz Jnr and Snr and it is one of lifes great mysteries that Snr made any money at all. As far as Jnr is concerned - if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!

**beachbum** · 27th Sep 11, 02:53

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I find the detractors are not engineers....and I will wait until the car hits the track.

Some of us do have engineering degrees. But I find it particularly odd that the Delta Wing concept is to put most of the weight and loads on the rear wheels in an era where weight distributions on F1 and prototypes are moving more forward and a common solution is to run bigger front tires. The new Peugeot and Audi Le Mans cars moved to much larger front tires and the Acura P1 used the same tires front and rear.

Bowlby may be a good engineer, but if he is right, then a lot of other very smart, experienced race engineers are very wrong. Frankly, I would trust the big factories and F1 teams to find the optimum designs. But it will be interesting to how / if the Delta Wing works.

**Chris R** · 27th Sep 11, 11:56

Originally Posted by beachbum

Some of us do have engineering degrees. But I find it particularly odd that the Delta Wing concept is to put most of the weight and loads on the rear wheels in an era where weight distributions on F1 and prototypes are moving more forward and a common solution is to run bigger front tires. The new Peugeot and Audi Le Mans cars moved to much larger front tires and the Acura P1 used the same tires front and rear.

Bowlby may be a good engineer, but if he is right, then a lot of other very smart, experienced race engineers are very wrong. Frankly, I would trust the big factories and F1 teams to find the optimum designs. But it will be interesting to how / if the Delta Wing works.

You make good points - the only thing I would add is that, do not forget that series' in question are governed by a strict set of rules and the Delta concept cannot function within those rules - so it is not a solution to even consider for the sports car and F1 teams - those engineers have found the best solutions within a given set of parameters.....

The only reason the Delta wing gets a shot at LeMans is that they have a class for new ideas.... Indy might do well to consider such a thing as well......

**anthonyvop** · 27th Sep 11, 15:30

Interesting "Find" about the Delta Wing and its construction.

It appears they are using the Aston-Martin AMR-1 tub for the prototype.

Mulsanne's Corner News, September/October 2011

Some great detective work by Mike Fuller at Mulsannecornner.com

**Chris R** · 27th Sep 11, 18:39

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Interesting "Find" about the Delta Wing and its construction.

It appears they are using the Aston-Martin AMR-1 tub for the prototype.

Mulsanne's Corner News, September/October 2011

Some great detective work by Mike Fuller at Mulsannecornner.com

Interesting - but the mockup and the tub do not "match" in the photo - the driver is on the opposite sides.... I wonder if the tub is just for studying or if they are making fundamental changes??

**nigelred5** · 28th Sep 11, 11:25

Originally Posted by Chris R

Interesting - but the mockup and the tub do not "match" in the photo - the driver is on the opposite sides.... I wonder if the tub is just for studying or if they are making fundamental changes??

From what Fuller's article says, they are using the AMR-1 tub because it's already ACO crash tested and approved. IIRC, the Deltawing design was a non stressed engine chassis, so this is bascially just a safety cell? Maybe they are just building a test mule unsing this chassis until they prove the thing will actually work?