11th Sep 12, 04:10 #1
Top Drivers from 2000 Onwards
I was going to post in the top drivers of all time thread, but I feel totally unqualified!
It would be much easier, and much less controversial(?) to post the top drivers since lets say 2000 (seems as good a time as any).
Having watched F1 since just before that year and being able to remember it all clearly (Jenson's debut year and those STUNNING Orange Arrows), I feel more confident at posting the best drivers from 2000-2012.
(I wonder if there should be a stipulation that a driver needs to have completed a certain amount of Grands Prix to qualify in this... Ok, driver must have competed in 3 seaons - fair?)
Ok here goes
1.Fernando Alonso - Ferrari say he's better than Schumi. I say he's better than Schumi too. Is, incredibly, more consistent in races, and throughout a season.
2.Michael Schumacher - 2006 showed to me he isn't up with Fernando. Makes too many mistakes, but he helped build Ferrari from a joke to major world power.
3.Sebastian Vettel - Has achieved an amazing amount in his 25 years, but needs to grow some more first before being ranked higher.
4.Lewis Hamilton - Could be top of this list if that celebrity rubbish didn't take his focus away. Thinks he's Mr Cool which annoys me. The fastest of all, probably.
5.Mika Hakkinen - Overrated methinks. NOT as fast as Schumacher over a season. Amazed that people don't realise McLaren had a 0.2sec faster car in 2000!!
6.Kimi Raikkonen - Completely overrated. He's superbly fast though, buuut so are others above him. Actually very consistent with excellent racecraft.
7.Jenson Button - When he's good he's great, and can top anyone above him here on his day. His failure in poor cars shows he's no Alonso though.
8.Robert Kubica - Often amazing. Feared by Alonso and Hamilton. But outqualified by Heidfeld x6 in 08 and Petrov x2 in 10. Would that have happened to Schumacher?
9.Mark Webber - Has always been underrated. Very fast. Has grown and learned to race and be more consistent. Can beat the guys above on his day too.
10.Juan-Pablo Montoya - The most overrated driver going - I'm talking about you Nigel Roebuck!! Could be brilliant in qual though. NOT in the class of the top 5 for me.
11.Rubens Barrichello - Was held back at Ferrari. Always suffered after unrepresentative 1995. Bit rubbish in 2006 & early '09 though...
12.Jarno Trulli - Up here for his sheer ability over one lap. On that alone, would be in the top 6. On the rest of it, he's down here.
13.Nico Rosberg -I'd say quicker than Barrichello. His races in recent times lack punch though.
14.Felipe Massa - Has always worked at it, and kept improving. Beat Villeneuve and a struggling Kimi.
15.Ralf Schumacher - Could be very good. Showed Montoya up plenty of times. Underrated cos he's a horrible spoilt person.
16.Heikki Kovalainen - Beat Fisichella and Trulli. Underrated.
17.Giancarlo Fisichella - People wonder why he's this high? Spa 01+09? Mid 2002. In 2004 trounced Massa, EDGED by him on pure pace in Malaysia and Brazil ONLY.
18.David Coulthard - Claimed he could do as well as Hamilton in a McLaren in 07. You had NINE years in a McLaren DC, and never showed anything like that!
19.Nick Heidfeld - Amazing ability to get exactly what the car is capable of. But no more.
20.Jacques Villeneuve - Even in his impressive 2006 season only matched Heidfeld for pace, and was floored by him on points. Not all luck Jacques, Heidfeld knows racing.
I'll keep it at 20 for now. I'm sure I've left someone out...
Last edited by D-Type; 8th Mar 13 at 09:39.SPAM - Going off topic to give you the deals you don't want. - (I'll change my avatar back soon)
11th Sep 12, 15:32 #2
I'm a little uncomfortable with 'rating' drivers who are still competing. At any time someone might do a "Singapore 2008", "Suzuka 1990" or similar and totally change how they deserve to be viewed. A driver's whole career should be considered, not just his most recent couple of seasons, which is very difficult when he is still racing. In the fullness of time, the true reason for an apparently poor performance tends to emerge. For example it was almost 50 years before the extent of Mike Hawthorn's kidney problems became common knowledge and some of his "off-form" days were explained. A more recent example is Mark Webber's broken shoulder.Duncan Rollo
The more you learn, the more you realise how little you know.
11th Sep 12, 21:47 #3
16th Sep 12, 16:46 #4
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
Your talking Racing Drivers here only ?As the king of rallying must be Loeb,as he is the master of rally,s these last few years
16th Sep 12, 22:51 #5
17th Sep 12, 00:57 #6
17th Sep 12, 12:11 #7
17th Sep 12, 13:10 #8
It's not current racing therefore it's history for the purposes of this forum.
17th Sep 12, 15:47 #9
Good thread. I will make the list based on the performance of the drivers from year 2000.
1 M Schumacher
The undisputed (for me) master of the sport. When he was in his peak, he was untouchable and dominating. One of the people who made Ferrari almost invincible.
2 F Alonso
Excellent and very consistent driver.
3 S Vettel
Great, extremely talented and quick. I believe that he might be better than Alonso, but drove fewer years than him, so I give him 3rd.
4. K Raikkonen
Extremely fast and talented. His 2005 season was spectacular and I love the way he won that elusive championship in 2007.
5. L Hamilton
I think that he was lucky to start his career with McLaren, but can't deny his talent and speed.
6. J Button
Very smart and talented driver. Maybe his championship title is my favorite since 2000.
7. J Montoya
Very, very talented, although very, very wild. Some of his victories were spectacular.
8 R Barrichello
He LOVED to whine, but wasn't a bad driver at al.
9 F Massa
Between 2006 and 2008 he was one of the fastest F1 drivers. I'm still sad about that lost 2008 championship.
10 M Webber
Very good driver, i think better than sometimes people realize.Formula 1
17th Sep 12, 16:01 #10
JPM - no contest.
Won in Indycar, F1, NASCAR, Grand AmThe world according to Taki Inoue: https://mobile.twitter.com/takiinoue/status/301406167249326080
17th Sep 12, 21:22 #11
This is a fuller list. Is it any near accurate...?
34.de la Rosa
69.BaumgartnerSPAM - Going off topic to give you the deals you don't want. - (I'll change my avatar back soon)
17th Sep 12, 22:02 #12
Sorry for the double post. I want to add explanations and ran out of time (30 mins).
He got his butt kicked by Kimi, and by Ralf on several occasions. Also he almost certainly would have been beatn by Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton and Vettel...
This is a fuller list. Is it any near accurate...?
1.Alonso - Ferrari say he's better than the guy below him
2.M.Schumacher - Too many mistakes though I think he has (had) a little more speed than Alonso
3.Vettel - Win (again) in a car that shouldn't and lose graciously, and you might get higher.
4.Hakkinen - I'm sick of people saying he's as good as Schumacher, when he just pipped MS to titles in a rocketship. Ferrari was NOT equal to McLaren in 2000. Coulthard was NOT 0.2sec quicker than Rubens Barrichello!
5.Hamilton - would Hamilton have done what Mika did in '98?
6.Raikkonen - I wish he would team up with Alonso. Too many people for my liking think he's the best in the world...
7.Kubica - 2010 best season, yet outqualified by Petrov x2. Would Michael in his prime have let that happen?
8.Button - Going off the boil when the car does is not a mark of a great.
9.Trulli - Underrated. His RAW talent is as good as anyone above him I think. Monaco qual 2004 - over 0.4sec quicker than Alonso.
10.Webber - Always felt he was underrated.
11.Montoya - Always felt he was overrated. Couldn't handle being beaten by Kimi. He would be better than the others above? Nope.
12.Rosberg - Schu has been too far ahead in too many races.
13.Barrichello - Underrated cos he ISN'T as good as Michael. People fail to realise not many drivers are. Always suffered after '95 perception against Irvine. My sister (an ardent Eddie fan) to this day brings up the 12-5 1995 qualifying stat against Rubens, as proof that Irvine is superior. Amazingly, many people believe this!!!
14.Kovalainen - Underrated for same reason as Rubens.
15.R.Schumacher - If recent F1 fans think Vettel is a brat...
16.Massa - Great at OPTIMISING his lot. Shone in '06-08, but looked less brilliant as more top drivers came through, revealing his true natural level.
17.Fisichella - Fisi will always be my all-time favourite. ALONSO IS BETTER THAN HIM - I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. Still stuffed in '05 by Flav though. I'm convinced and have my reasons. I know about the constructors and all those arguments. I knew before that season.
18.Villeneuve - Please don't tell me he's better than Fisi! Beaten by Alonso and Massa much more than Fisi was. Heidfeld > JV too.
19.Coulthard - 9 seasons in race/title winning cars. Unlucky my @$$.
20.Heidfeld - Amazing to think now he used to be the next best thing (just before Alonso, Kimi and co came along). Has since been underrated but it's his own fault he was so dog slow at Renault in 2011.
21.Sutil - The 2005 gap to Hamilton was fairly representative I think.
22.Davidson - I'm taking his word for it that he's good as he thinks he is!
23.Glock - Podiums in a Toyota and comparison to Trulli more favourable than HHF I think
24.Frentzen - ahead of Irvine by dint of more natural talent.
25.Irvine - just kept getting better and better. Monza 2002 was brilliant. Pushed out of F1 way too early.
26.Kobayashi - overrated. We all like a spectacular driver but why do people think thats' worth about 0.5sec?
27.Sato - There's a difference between being brave and just being a moron.
28.Alguersuari - Poor quali, but excellent racecraft for his age. An old head on young shoulders.
29.Klien - Harsh Red Bull young driver treatment is nothing new...
30.Buemi - Ahead of Panis really? I'm going on his thrashing of Bourdais
31.Panis - Very good driver. Respect.
32.Wurz - Made a huge impact but soon got shown up by Fisi, though his car and treatment were bad.
33.Alesi - overrated much? His talent was much higher than his application. Beaten way too much by UNgreat team-mates.
34.de la Rosa - Why do people say he didn't shine much at Arrows? Where WERE you in 2000? Never FINISHED ahead of Irvine...!
35.Salo - Overrated. More arrogance than talent. What did Toyota see in him? Outperformed IRVINE x2 in Ferrari = Big deal
36.Piquet - The less said the better.
37.Liuzzi - Italy's next world champion just seemed a bit lazy to me. 1 or 2 decent drives a season not good enough. Cost Force India 6th in constructors in 2010.
38.Nakajima - Ahead of Herbert, but was closer to Rosberg than Herbert was to the likes of Irvine.
39.Herbert - I like him, but boy the most overrated driver of all! Consistently miles off teammates. But then what was Monza '94 about. How DID that happen?
40.Pizzonia - Not quite up there with Piquet but...
41.da Matta - Attitude problem meant he wasn't missed.
42.Verstappen - One of my all time favourites. Combative, brilliant, rainmaster, dog slow *sighs*
43.Bernoldi - Underrated. Outqualified Verstappen. Lacked confidence. His talent was better than that.
44.McNish - Moaned a lot I thought. I'm sorry mate, comparing worse to Salo than Diniz did is not a sign of greatness.
45.Zonta - Also knew how to whine like a puppy. Massive reputation (future at McLaren it looked like!) but slow.
46.Bourdais - Worse attitude than da Matta. One of my favourite drivers, but not any more. Your own fault Seb.
47.Wilson - Overrated as better than Webber by British press. I bought it. A good driver though.
48.Pantano - Back in 2000, McLaren, Ferrari and Renault fought over his long-term services. Then Button, Raikkonen, Alonso and the rest came along.
49.Speed - didn't see much of that from him.
50.Burti - Brilliantly lost the British F3 title to Marc Hynes in 1999. Got in at Jaguar as they feared Franchitti would be another Zanardi.
51.Enge - Got better and better in the races during his short stint at Prost in 2001. Yes he did drive in F1!
52.Montagny - So did he! Not very well though. I liked him, but talk about overrated!
53.Firman - another Brit who whined more than did anything special. You would have won Brazil 2003? Get Real!
54.Albers - Johnny I take it back - you are the 2nd most overrated guy here. What is it about drivers with more bad attitude than talent?
55.Bruni - I was a big fan until his quarter baked effort for Minardi, parking healthy cars in attritonal races and all. Minardi deserved better.
56.Diniz - The archetypal underrated driver who was maligned because he brought money. Diniz was one of the most useful drivers in that his purpose was to show up supposedly amazing drivers like Hill and Salo. Eventually got the credit he deserved.
58.Karthikeyan - Only in the mega-depth of talent in 2012 does Karthikeyan not look talented. Even then he is a brilliantly professional and safe pair of hands. The most unfairly criticised driver in F1 today. Drives with flair in the wet, as in Brands Hatch in British F3 in 1999. Also in F1.
62.Badoer - Formula 3000 Champ in 1992. Pace always average +1.6sec over a season and oddly never improved...
63.Winkelhock - I'm just guessing where to put him, ok.
64.Yamamoto - Not as bad as made out to be.
66.Yoong - Lacked confidence. In final 3 races, especially in the race he compared very well with Webber. Has won in A1GP and has talent.
67.Mazzacane - Not that bad actually.
68.Ide - Could have done better. It was a mess really.
69.Baumgartner - No Deletraz. Very good approach and scored a point by being there at the end.SPAM - Going off topic to give you the deals you don't want. - (I'll change my avatar back soon)
17th Sep 12, 23:05 #13
As to what might constitute "history" -- as someone asked earlier, it generally takes about 10-15 years to have a reasonable distance from events to begin to form an objective perspective, but it is usually somewhere about 20-25 years for the context, the linkages, the material, the Zeitgeist, and so forth to be adequately both available and understood so as to begin to approach the subject with the proper historical tools -- and "historical thinking" as well. These are not hard and fast parameters, of course, given that "sports history" seems to exist in a parallel universe where last season is ancient history. "Political history" is usually a fellow-traveler with "sports history" given the short attention spans that both possess.
As Gordon Wood correctly reminds us, "Popular memory is not history..." and that would seem to apply in this case.
However, feel free to continue and ignore this contrarian note....Popular memory is not history.... -- Gordon Wood
18th Sep 12, 11:28 #14
18th Sep 12, 14:02 #15
So does racing in F1 automatically make you better than those in Champ/Indycar? I would say Rubens would disagree...Kyle Busch #18 M&M's Toyota Camry
Dario Franchitti #10 Target Honda Dallara DW12
18th Sep 12, 15:27 #16
And yes, judging history when still close to it is a tricky one, same as 'Song of the year' often ended up being whatever one was No. 1 at that moment rather than a considered view, however this forum isn't a doctoral thesis so anything that isn't 'current', goes.
18th Sep 12, 23:01 #17
19th Sep 12, 00:50 #18
Kimi and JPM were near equal.
JPM got it into his head McLaren favoured Kimi eg. 2005 Canadian GP - McLaren should have pitted JPM immediately when the SC came out.
Nor did have a good relationship with Ron - Kimi fell out with Ron and then ironically enough Kimi too fell out with Ferrari and his performance/results suffered.
Re: Vettel - although I regard him highly its hard to put my finger exactly on his greatness. He seems more reliant on car (less so than say Button) nor does he seem to have a drive on par with his first win.The world according to Taki Inoue: https://mobile.twitter.com/takiinoue/status/301406167249326080
19th Sep 12, 00:51 #19
19th Sep 12, 00:56 #20