Team orders at Ferrari - Page 31

thunderbolt

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/sport/...0/56ec0af13956

Originally Posted by
Speaking ahead of this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix, Massa says he'll quit the day he becomes a number two driver and that Alonso is not number one at Ferrari.

is it goodbye massa

Valve Bounce

"They gave Felipe a good opportunity to win the grand prix as well," said Webber. "They gave him the chance to win the race up to the point where he couldn't pull away from Fernando. Obviously they had a decision in the team where the fastest guy in the team wins the race. The fastest guy on that day won the race."

The faster guy was behind, a safe overtaking manouvre was required where one car did not try to ram the other car like Vettel did in Turkey, the pass was made, and Ferrari scored a 1,2.

What the hell is wrong with that?

This thread is going round and round in circles, and basically getting nowhere. Time to MOVE ON!

Of course, when Vettel buggers up his start and Mark is leading, and then Vettel comes powering up from behind, I wonder what Horner will say to Mark?

Like:" Mark, Seb is behind you and he is going faster, Mark! do you hear Mark? Do you understand Mark? Hello Mark! Hello Mark! testing, testing, testing 1,2,3 Mark ! can you hear me, Mark?

Saint Devote

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
"They gave Felipe a good opportunity to win the grand prix as well," said Webber. "They gave him the chance to win the race up to the point where he couldn't pull away from Fernando. Obviously they had a decision in the team where the fastest guy in the team wins the race. The fastest guy on that day won the race."

The faster guy was behind, a safe overtaking manouvre was required where one car did not try to ram the other car like Vettel did in Turkey, the pass was made, and Ferrari scored a 1,2.

What the hell is wrong with that?

This thread is going round and round in circles, and basically getting nowhere. Time to MOVE ON!

Of course, when Vettel buggers up his start and Mark is leading, and then Vettel comes powering up from behind, I wonder what Horner will say to Mark?

Like:" Mark, Seb is behind you and he is going faster, Mark! do you hear Mark? Do you understand Mark? Hello Mark! Hello Mark! testing, testing, testing 1,2,3 Mark ! can you hear me, Mark?

Mateschitz said that whoever is in front stays in front. He does NOT want what happened in Turkey or Silverstone to recur and the object is to win the Constructors title as well as the WDC.

I think that the RBR managers are well aware that NOT winning at least ONE title will be worse than the days of making THAT phone call back to Maranello to report uncompetitive news.

Valve Bounce

Yeah!

the penalty requires them to drink ten tins of that goop.

ioan

Looks like I missed a lot of fun.

Anyway the Austrian commentator mentioned yesterday that the 'Alonso is faster than you' order has been issued 3 times before Massa finally moved over in a blatant way.
This explains why Alonso was complaining earlier in the race and also makes it clear that Massa didn't do it out of love for the team or Alonso, but because of the pressure put on him.

wedge

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Bagwan has already posted a report of Massa's comments, and they've also appeared on Autosport.

This stood out to me:

Originally Posted by
When asked what would happen if he was faced with the same situation this weekend, Massa replied: "I will win."

tinchote

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Does cycling have a specific rule which clearly states that orders team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited?

I repeat - and I'm a little tired of repeating it - there is certainly a debate to be had whether the rule needs clarifying or abolishing; there are many posts here sympathetic to the idea that team orders are part and parcel of the sport. But the point remains that Ferrari signed up for the 2010 season knowing full well such orders were prohibited, then chose to break the rules.

So did McLaren in 2008, but your argument is that because it was not blatant (and because it is the team you like, of course) then it's not so important.

You need to make up your mind: either "rules are rules" or either it's a matter of interpretation. If it is the second, then you should temper your opinions a little.

markabilly

Originally Posted by wedge

of course, she's donKey Jote's old lady and wants you..... she heard you got a quarter and that you were real fast, much faster than I will ever hope to be...........something like .6 of a second, correct?

Dave Brockman

Originally Posted by tinchote
So did McLaren in 2008, but your argument is that because it was not blatant (and because it is the team you like, of course) then it's not so important.

You need to make up your mind: either "rules are rules" or either it's a matter of interpretation. If it is the second, then you should temper your opinions a little.

I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again. Use the search facility if you care, but do not ever tell me to temper my opinion.

donKey jote

Originally Posted by markabilly
of course, she's donKey Jote's old lady

eh? I didn't reckognise her... I thought yer sister wasn't allowed out without her paper bag anyway.

donKey jote

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again. Use the search facility if you care, but do not ever tell me to temper my opinion.

tamper your onions a little instead then?

Daika

I don't get it when people say that Alonso was faster than Massa. Why do those people exclude something significant as overtaking? Massa did it, at the start overtaking Alonso.

Bradley

Originally Posted by Daika
Why do those people exclude something significant as overtaking? Massa did it, at the start overtaking Alonso.

And I think the chance is big that he will do it again tomorrow.

- Massa = fast starter
- Alonso = bad starter and already one jumpstart in 2010

The pair to look tomorrow at 1400CET

ioan

Originally Posted by Daika
I don't get it when people say that Alonso was faster than Massa. Why do those people exclude something significant as overtaking? Massa did it, at the start overtaking Alonso.

They should go watch rallying.

tinchote

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again. Use the search facility if you care, but do not ever tell me to temper my opinion.

I'm just mentioning that you both said "rules are rules" and that "it depends on how it's done". Weird standards.

Triumph

This whole episode didn't look good, but if it was my favourite driver (Lewis) gaining an advantage from all this then I wouldn't be complaining. For that reason I won't be complaining about Fernando gaining an advantage.

wedge

wedge

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again

If Heikki was said to be impeding Hamilton's progress in 2008 then the same could be argued for last week in that Massa was backing Alonso into Vettel compromising Ferrari's race for a 1-2 finish which even Adam Cooper, who didn't advocate Ferrari's team orders, thinks holds substantial weight even if Ferrari did eventually finish 1-2:

Originally Posted by
http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...rand-prix//P2/

One interesting aspect to the affair is that neither Alonso nor Stefano Domenicali majored on the fact that Sebastian Vettel was not far behind – and that Massa in effect should have either gotten a move on or let Fernando past – by way of justification. It’ll be interesting if they try to use that now.

Roamy

see back in the days of TAD when elect boxes were not regulated the pit would just reduce your rpms and they hence no team orders.

Dave Brockman

Originally Posted by tinchote
I'm just mentioning that you both said "rules are rules" and that "it depends on how it's done". Weird standards.

Not at all, dear chap, not at all.

Sigh. Let's go through it again, really simply.

Ferrari swapped their drivers who were running first and second. They literally could not do better, and whichever way you slice it 25+18 = 18+25.

The overwhelming majority of viewers were in no doubt that they had heard a clear and unambiguous team order over the radio, an opinion which was lent weight by Smedley's words on the slowing down lap, and then as if further proof was needed along comes Luca di Montezemolo blowing the gaffe wide open by saying "that's how it's always been done".

If Ferrari want to say "it's for the good of the team" then fair enough - I actually have some sympathy with that - but they can't in the same breath say that Massa isn't a #2 driver. Both statements can't be true.

McLaren in 2008 then. Because of a cock-up with the pitstops, Hamilton was being held up by his team mate and denied the chance of chasing down faster cars up front. Heikki let him past, and there was no doubt whatsoever that he was correct to do so as Lewis went on to win, while the Finn only had the pace for 5th. It was obvious to a blind monkey at the back that Hamilton was faster than Heikki.

So, the differences between 2008 and 2010 are as follows. There was no call over the radio to McLaren, there was to Ferrari. McLaren benefited as their driver went on to win, Ferrari already had 1st place and literally could not improve. No other team complained at the time about Heikki's move. Heikki appears to have acted independently, whereas everybody heard Smedley on the radio to Massa. The stewards did not investigate McLaren, presumably because they didn't feel there was a case to answer, and because they didn't feel it was a team order.

Please confirm you understand the above

Edit: the notion (above) that Ferrari's 1-2 was under threat from Vettel holds little water, as Vettel only began to close up on Massa once the demotivated Brazillian put in a series of mediocre laps. Until the team order, Ferrari owned that race. And that's what makes it worse.